How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Coolbanana said:
Have a lovely day folks! My advice: don't waste precious time on an internet Forum arguing with people you'll never meet; get out and live Life.
You do, very occasionally, talk sense. 
There would certainly have been fewer argumentative posts if you hadn't chosen to deliberately bait the thread.
Coolbanana said:
Apologies if this has been mentioned; I tend not to go back through the rapidly increasing number of pages on this subject but...
The venerable Tony Blair, whom many Britons adored and voted into power once upon a time, recently took full responsibility for the Immigration Issues many Leave Voters blamed the EU for.
Has that been discussed? Just lobbing it in, in case anyone wants to explore it further.
He admitted it was his Governments Policy to open the borders and to significantly weaken the entry requirements and deliberately entice foreigners to live and work in the UK.
He further went on to say had he would have "fixed the problem" himself, blah blah weasel-words etc from a Politician.
Anyway, the point being, he has demonstrated that the UK Immigration Issues are entirely self-inflicted by the UK's own Governance and not anything the EU has enforced upon the UK.
I mention this because I still come across Leaver's who refuse to accept that bad judgement by UK Government has caused much of the problems Leaver's voted out for. That bad judgement is not going to go away by leaving...you will still have it and if they want to increase the work-force, they will simply allow more from other parts of the World in - easily done, as it will be sold as a part of a tremendous Trade Deal with the Chinese, for example.
So...how long after Leave, will it take for the National Dish to become a Chinese Takeaway, dethroning the Curry?
Have a lovely day folks! My advice: don't waste precious time on an internet Forum arguing with people you'll never meet and get all gammony over; get out and live Life. Reserve this only for fleeting moments between more interesting stuff.
Yes we could have had the moon on a stick if we had only voted remain !!! oh well onward and upward...The venerable Tony Blair, whom many Britons adored and voted into power once upon a time, recently took full responsibility for the Immigration Issues many Leave Voters blamed the EU for.
Has that been discussed? Just lobbing it in, in case anyone wants to explore it further.
He admitted it was his Governments Policy to open the borders and to significantly weaken the entry requirements and deliberately entice foreigners to live and work in the UK.
He further went on to say had he would have "fixed the problem" himself, blah blah weasel-words etc from a Politician.
Anyway, the point being, he has demonstrated that the UK Immigration Issues are entirely self-inflicted by the UK's own Governance and not anything the EU has enforced upon the UK.
I mention this because I still come across Leaver's who refuse to accept that bad judgement by UK Government has caused much of the problems Leaver's voted out for. That bad judgement is not going to go away by leaving...you will still have it and if they want to increase the work-force, they will simply allow more from other parts of the World in - easily done, as it will be sold as a part of a tremendous Trade Deal with the Chinese, for example.
So...how long after Leave, will it take for the National Dish to become a Chinese Takeaway, dethroning the Curry?
Have a lovely day folks! My advice: don't waste precious time on an internet Forum arguing with people you'll never meet and get all gammony over; get out and live Life. Reserve this only for fleeting moments between more interesting stuff.
Digga said:
Coolbanana said:
The venerable Tony Blair, whom many Britons adored and voted into power once upon a time, recently took full responsibility for the Immigration Issues many Leave Voters blamed the EU for.
Has that been discussed? Just lobbing it in, in case anyone wants to explore it further.
He admitted it was his Governments Policy to open the borders and to significantly weaken the entry requirements and deliberately entice foreigners to live and work in the UK.
Actually true and a fair point, although what escapes you is that, in more recent years, it has been the EU's door policy which has driven most illegal immigration into the UK.Has that been discussed? Just lobbing it in, in case anyone wants to explore it further.
He admitted it was his Governments Policy to open the borders and to significantly weaken the entry requirements and deliberately entice foreigners to live and work in the UK.
Coolbanana said:
So...how long after Leave, will it take for the National Dish to become a Chinese Takeaway, dethroning the Curry?
Erm.... never. The UK and the Indian sub-continent have long established cultural and commercial ties. Indian cuisine has been a fixture in UK towns for far longer than it has even in major continental European cities.Nowt new about having a Chinese in the UK, they were here before the EU and the rise of the popularity of having an Indian.
Tuna said:
NI is not an impossible problem unless we allow it to be so.
Its going to take a very clever piece of work, or a compromise of some sort from the DUP to get past this problem. I agree that its not impossible, but its pretty darn difficult, that's for sure. Trying to get the DUP to weaken their position on being fully integral with the UK will be a huge challenge, and I'm not sure if they are willing to compromise one single bit. They continue to talk in black and white so its not looking promising.With current positions taken by the EU/ROI and N Ireland, the only current solution that actually fixes the NI problem is that the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But that doesn't work for Teresa May. If Teresa May goes with the only solution that works for NI, then she is basically signing her job away. It really is a square peg/round hole situation right now.
Ghibli said:
Tuna said:
Ghibli said:
All you need to work out now is that the negotiations are reality. I think the negotiations are reality and your idea of Brexit and the Ireland issue doesn't fit with the reality of the negotiations.
So, midway through negotiations that you can't explain, with an outcome not expected for weeks at best, you think you have a vision of reality that no-one could possibly disagree with? You do understand what negotiations are, don't you? And that different options, and different outcomes are available?Or in magical Ghibli-land, is May a special kind of negotiator that gets the best possible deal of all deals? (Hint - I'm asking you what you're thinking here. If it's as sharp an insight as the Leadsom comment, I'm expecting a few posts of avoiding answering because you know you've been talking nonsense again).
The problems in the real negotiations need to be addressed and resolved. Without that there will be no deal.
Saying they have been addressed on PH and resolved is just fantasy. You keep telling me that I have been told but you can't work out that it is BS and the negotiations are not moving forward and the same problems are still there.
Maybe some people think that Leadsom threatening to resign will solve something and the EU will buckle if she resigns. It's just politicians playing games and struggling to eat the big slice of cake they have taken.
soupdragon1 said:
Its going to take a very clever piece of work, or a compromise of some sort from the DUP to get past this problem. I agree that its not impossible, but its pretty darn difficult, that's for sure. Trying to get the DUP to weaken their position on being fully integral with the UK will be a huge challenge, and I'm not sure if they are willing to compromise one single bit. They continue to talk in black and white so its not looking promising.
With current positions taken by the EU/ROI and N Ireland, the only current solution that actually fixes the NI problem is that the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But that doesn't work for Teresa May. If Teresa May goes with the only solution that works for NI, then she is basically signing her job away. It really is a square peg/round hole situation right now.
Out of interest, why is it down to the DUP?With current positions taken by the EU/ROI and N Ireland, the only current solution that actually fixes the NI problem is that the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But that doesn't work for Teresa May. If Teresa May goes with the only solution that works for NI, then she is basically signing her job away. It really is a square peg/round hole situation right now.
Whether rUK likes it or not, NI is part of the United Kingdom. That is not something the EU should be suggesting gets tampered with.
RoI is part of a political project called the EU.
As others have noted already, the EU project already has exceptions to the way it handles certain territories under its wing. So there are many options for dealing with this impossible conundrum (DUP giving up is one, but the EU have options too).
The more it drags on the more I think we should say screw it. We'll deal with our side of the border how we want (no checks at the border) and leave it up to LeoV to sort what the Irish do on their side.
That border managed to operate fine pre 1992/3. And there are already "issues" with "cross border arbitrage" that nobody really gives a flying fig about because the scale of the issue is rounding errors.
So for anything staying inside the island of Ireland, why does anybody really care?
Which then leaves the stuff coming into rUK (we are unlikely to care and can make that choice) or finding it's way to rEU... Which isn't our problem unless it happens to transit via the UK. Maybe the solution is to note we'll be fine with no RoI goods transiting the UK to the rEU. See how well that works for RoI.
soupdragon1 said:
Its going to take a very clever piece of work, or a compromise of some sort from the DUP to get past this problem. I agree that its not impossible, but its pretty darn difficult, that's for sure. Trying to get the DUP to weaken their position on being fully integral with the UK will be a huge challenge, and I'm not sure if they are willing to compromise one single bit. They continue to talk in black and white so its not looking promising.
With current positions taken by the EU/ROI and N Ireland, the only current solution that actually fixes the NI problem is that the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But that doesn't work for Teresa May. If Teresa May goes with the only solution that works for NI, then she is basically signing her job away. It really is a square peg/round hole situation right now.
I did find myself idly wondering if the solution was to give the DUP an ultimatum. If it couldn't live without the CU/SM and a completely open border, then it should ask to join Europe - otherwise it has to accept that a very low friction border (ala Barnier et. al.) is a necessary cost of remaining in a United Kingdom. Politically, I don't think that's an option for May, but it's quite possibly going to be the choice they have to make anyway if the current impasse continues. There's a point beyond which the tail can't wag the dog.With current positions taken by the EU/ROI and N Ireland, the only current solution that actually fixes the NI problem is that the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But that doesn't work for Teresa May. If Teresa May goes with the only solution that works for NI, then she is basically signing her job away. It really is a square peg/round hole situation right now.
The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
Jazzy Jag said:
The Dangerous Elk said:
jsf said:
God you are boring.
But not quite as boring as being sat in the freight port in Calais working my way through security and check in for the stinky bus. (Eurotunnel freight train).
So far been queuing for an hour.
Has the economy crashed yet?
Yep, Land Rover have closed thanks to you and BrexitBut not quite as boring as being sat in the freight port in Calais working my way through security and check in for the stinky bus. (Eurotunnel freight train).
So far been queuing for an hour.
Has the economy crashed yet?
Sales in China has fallen dramatically, so when did China join the EU?
Keep clutching at straws.
Murph7355 said:
Out of interest, why is it down to the DUP?
Whether rUK likes it or not, NI is part of the United Kingdom. That is not something the EU should be suggesting gets tampered with.
RoI is part of a political project called the EU.
As others have noted already, the EU project already has exceptions to the way it handles certain territories under its wing. So there are many options for dealing with this impossible conundrum (DUP giving up is one, but the EU have options too).
The more it drags on the more I think we should say screw it. We'll deal with our side of the border how we want (no checks at the border) and leave it up to LeoV to sort what the Irish do on their side.
That border managed to operate fine pre 1992/3. And there are already "issues" with "cross border arbitrage" that nobody really gives a flying fig about because the scale of the issue is rounding errors.
So for anything staying inside the island of Ireland, why does anybody really care?
Which then leaves the stuff coming into rUK (we are unlikely to care and can make that choice) or finding it's way to rEU... Which isn't our problem unless it happens to transit via the UK. Maybe the solution is to note we'll be fine with no RoI goods transiting the UK to the rEU. See how well that works for RoI.
I find it hard to decipher your actual points here to be honest. We can't just say screw it, we'll do things our way. It has to be done in a legally binding way, we can't just make up some new rules to fit. Whether rUK likes it or not, NI is part of the United Kingdom. That is not something the EU should be suggesting gets tampered with.
RoI is part of a political project called the EU.
As others have noted already, the EU project already has exceptions to the way it handles certain territories under its wing. So there are many options for dealing with this impossible conundrum (DUP giving up is one, but the EU have options too).
The more it drags on the more I think we should say screw it. We'll deal with our side of the border how we want (no checks at the border) and leave it up to LeoV to sort what the Irish do on their side.
That border managed to operate fine pre 1992/3. And there are already "issues" with "cross border arbitrage" that nobody really gives a flying fig about because the scale of the issue is rounding errors.
So for anything staying inside the island of Ireland, why does anybody really care?
Which then leaves the stuff coming into rUK (we are unlikely to care and can make that choice) or finding it's way to rEU... Which isn't our problem unless it happens to transit via the UK. Maybe the solution is to note we'll be fine with no RoI goods transiting the UK to the rEU. See how well that works for RoI.
Murph7355 said:
Whether rUK likes it or not, NI is part of the United Kingdom. That is not something the EU should be suggesting gets tampered with.
RoI is part of a political project called the EU.
As others have noted already, the EU project already has exceptions to the way it handles certain territories under its wing. So there are many options for dealing with this impossible conundrum (DUP giving up is one, but the EU have options too).
.
Yet I seem to recall when Catalan regional leaders asked the EU to intervene they stated they viewed the issue an internal Spanish matter.RoI is part of a political project called the EU.
As others have noted already, the EU project already has exceptions to the way it handles certain territories under its wing. So there are many options for dealing with this impossible conundrum (DUP giving up is one, but the EU have options too).
.
Tuna said:
I did find myself idly wondering if the solution was to give the DUP an ultimatum. If it couldn't live without the CU/SM and a completely open border, then it should ask to join Europe - otherwise it has to accept that a very low friction border (ala Barnier et. al.) is a necessary cost of remaining in a United Kingdom. Politically, I don't think that's an option for May, but it's quite possibly going to be the choice they have to make anyway if the current impasse continues. There's a point beyond which the tail can't wag the dog.
The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
I agree and IMO, I think that is the most logical step to take right now. The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
The next issue on this horizon though, should this end up being the eventual path we go down, is Scotland. They won't be happy with special status for NI....and so the problem continues. Its just a nightmare!
Tuna said:
I did find myself idly wondering if the solution was to give the DUP an ultimatum. If it couldn't live without the CU/SM and a completely open border, then it should ask to join Europe - otherwise it has to accept that a very low friction border (ala Barnier et. al.) is a necessary cost of remaining in a United Kingdom. Politically, I don't think that's an option for May, but it's quite possibly going to be the choice they have to make anyway if the current impasse continues. There's a point beyond which the tail can't wag the dog.
The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
I think you might be confused about the various positions.The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
The DUP aren't the ones who want an open border inside Ireland or want to maintain the CU. They're the ones who want NI to be treated like any other part of the UK.
It's the other side and the boys in the South who want an open border etc. etc. as a pretty transparent attempt to get a united Ireland via the back door.
And that is something the DUP will never support.
Jonesy23 said:
Tuna said:
I did find myself idly wondering if the solution was to give the DUP an ultimatum. If it couldn't live without the CU/SM and a completely open border, then it should ask to join Europe - otherwise it has to accept that a very low friction border (ala Barnier et. al.) is a necessary cost of remaining in a United Kingdom. Politically, I don't think that's an option for May, but it's quite possibly going to be the choice they have to make anyway if the current impasse continues. There's a point beyond which the tail can't wag the dog.
The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
I think you might be confused about the various positions.The point with the whole of the UK staying in the CU is that not only does it not work for May, it doesn't work for the majority of Leave voters and it doesn't work for the EU. The small subset of hardcore Remainers are the only group for whom it 'makes sense', but if the EU won't treat it as a serious option, they're very much in the land of fantasies trying to will it into existence.
The DUP aren't the ones who want an open border inside Ireland or want to maintain the CU. They're the ones who want NI to be treated like any other part of the UK.
It's the other side and the boys in the South who want an open border etc. etc. as a pretty transparent attempt to get a united Ireland via the back door.
And that is something the DUP will never support.
Everyone basically signed an agreement to kick the can down the road (the can being the border issue) and the can is still on the street - but now with no kicking room left. That's where we are.
Jonesy23 said:
I think you might be confused about the various positions.
The DUP aren't the ones who want an open border inside Ireland or want to maintain the CU. They're the ones who want NI to be treated like any other part of the UK.
It's the other side and the boys in the South who want an open border etc. etc. as a pretty transparent attempt to get a united Ireland via the back door.
And that is something the DUP will never support.
This is the hidden agenda within the Eu in regards to the "NI question"The DUP aren't the ones who want an open border inside Ireland or want to maintain the CU. They're the ones who want NI to be treated like any other part of the UK.
It's the other side and the boys in the South who want an open border etc. etc. as a pretty transparent attempt to get a united Ireland via the back door.
And that is something the DUP will never support.
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