How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
PurpleMoonlight said:
JagLover said:
To me the problem with the referendum is that it did not deliver a government to carry out its wishes. Which is why you end up with someone like May in charge who talks the talk but is a traitor to her country and people.
What I most hope for is the ERG to split off to form another party. The result would almost certainly be a Corbyn government but at least I would be able to put my x besides someone who genuinely wants to govern in the interests of the people.
Traitor! Seriously?What I most hope for is the ERG to split off to form another party. The result would almost certainly be a Corbyn government but at least I would be able to put my x besides someone who genuinely wants to govern in the interests of the people.
You may not like the proposed future relationship with the EU but traitor is ridiculous. The UK is leaving the EU, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
HoHoHo said:
You mean some of the very same people who voted in the Tory government knowing the leader was a remainer.... 
.
Who stood on a manifesto commitment of leaving the Single Market and customs union.......
Time for the ERG to show if they are only about words as well, or if they can follow through with deeds.
PurpleMoonlight said:
As far as I can see it's not 'the' customs union it is a new UK:EU customs union and there is a mechanism to terminate it.
A mechanism that is not under the control of the UK government.Hence "vassalage" we are bound to the EU in a relationship we cannot legally escape from, and where we have to accept any rules, in the areas agreed, the EU decides to impose.
JagLover said:
A mechanism that is not under the control of the UK government.
Hence "vassalage" we are bound to the EU in a relationship we cannot legally escape from, and where we have to accept any rules, in the areas agreed, the EU decides to impose.
It is in control. Parliament will or will not chose to sign up to it. Isn't that the control you wanted?Hence "vassalage" we are bound to the EU in a relationship we cannot legally escape from, and where we have to accept any rules, in the areas agreed, the EU decides to impose.
Thereafter there is supposedly a mechanism to terminate it.
JagLover said:
HoHoHo said:
You mean some of the very same people who voted in the Tory government knowing the leader was a remainer....
.
Who stood on a manifesto commitment of leaving the Single Market and customs union.......
Time for the ERG to show if they are only about words as well, or if they can follow through with deeds.
We were repeatedly told that, again and again.
It’s stuck in the back of our throats it’s been said so often.
This is the best she believes she can offer and leavers should sit back and be happy she’s had a go and get on with life. As a remainer that’s exactly what I intend to do, it’s not my preferred option but I’m going to accept the decision the government invited for have decided is best for me.
But no, they aren’t happy, which is odd when in fact they had no idea what they were voting for
JagLover said:
Once the legal advice has been released I am confident that there is going to be no realistic way out of the customs union. How else would you describe someone who actively goes against the national interest of their own country and would see it bound in vassalage?.
I'm not sure I'd go along with "traitor" but certainly the detail of any proposed customs union needs spelling out very clearly and the legal interpretation agreed by both the UK & EU before we sign anything. I don't mind having the same customs duties as the EU when we start off, but if that means that we are unable to negotiate trade deals with other countries or if the EU has influence (due to the customs thing) on how we go about setting up other deals, then that's a very bad thing to sign up for.Personally I've no faith at all in the "it's only temporary". Various reports are claiming that whatever customs union we sign up for can only be ended by the agreement of both parties. If that is the case and we are paying anything into the EU coffers, then how likely is it that the EU will give consent to ending the agreement, especially if it would make the UK more competitive ?
They've had over 2 years to sort out a non-problem and if they haven't done it now then it's not going to happen in the next 20 years. I don't mind a fixed term deal but what has apparently been proposed isn't that.
Ironically after the Remain voters insisting on a Parliamentary vote in the belief that they could scupper what they considered to be a hard brexit deal they may well find it's come back to bite them. Labour will oppose whatever TM puts forward regardless and if the DUP or enough rebels back it, then it's either back to the table with amendments or we're out with nothing. If we do leave with no deal at all, no transition, it'll be down to that "Meaningful vote" thing.
PurpleMoonlight said:
As far as I can see it's not 'the' customs union it is a new UK:EU customs union and there is a mechanism to terminate it.
Being in 'a' customs union means the UK trade policy is controlled by Brussels. There is no difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union.And what is this 'mechanism'?
PurpleMoonlight said:
Traitor! Seriously?
You may not like the proposed future relationship with the EU but traitor is ridiculous. The UK is leaving the EU, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
Quite.You may not like the proposed future relationship with the EU but traitor is ridiculous. The UK is leaving the EU, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
This vitriol is similar to what the ERG spout and is why they aren't taken seriously outside of their own meetings and this thread.
Dr Jekyll said:
Being in 'a' customs union means the UK trade policy is controlled by Brussels. There is no difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union.
And what is this 'mechanism'?
No it doesn't necessarily follow. Chequers made it clear the UK would still be able to effect trade deals. Of course we don't know yet how closed the backstop is to this.And what is this 'mechanism'?
From what I have read, leaving would effectively involve an independent arbitrator if the UK & EU didn't agree.
MrBarry123 said:
Quite.
This vitriol is similar to what the ERG spout and is why they aren't taken seriously outside of their own meetings and this thread.
The only way to be sure of how "seriously" they are taken is for them to split off and form their own party This vitriol is similar to what the ERG spout and is why they aren't taken seriously outside of their own meetings and this thread.
I suspect that the opinions of the membership, and of most of the Conservative vote, is more closely aligned to them than it is with May and her betrayal.
p1stonhead said:
2pm it is then.
Cue every brexiter in the country whining like a moron after the meeting because it’s not what they wanted from their individual version of brexit that no one knew about
We've been listening to Remain morons whining for over over 2yrs now, so fair's fair Cue every brexiter in the country whining like a moron after the meeting because it’s not what they wanted from their individual version of brexit that no one knew about
Anyway, what I strongly suspect we are about to get is Leave and Remain voters "whining"...
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
Because if May' s deal is anything like Chequers - and I cannot see it being anything better than that, unless even the EU recognise it's a piss take that has no chance of success - then in any material sense it is not leaving the EU.And leaving the EU is what we voted for in 2016, it's very clearly what her manifesto was based on in 2017 when she won more votes than any government in 20yrs and it's what she was consistently saying up until Chequers.
Politicians, it would seem, have yet to learn that the rise of "populism" is because people of all persuasions are sick to the back teeth of politicians lying to the electorate and breaking pledges. They need to wake up quickly.
Imo one of the real questions is whether our Goverment is capable of negotiating the task of us leaving the EU without a deal There will be an awful lot more work for them to carry out and who will they be able to blame when it would be their choice to leave without a deal.
It's certainly looking unlikely that the EU will buckle and the Germans will be taking control of the negotiations in order to sell us cars. Having said that are we waiting for this to happen one minute before we leave.
It's certainly looking unlikely that the EU will buckle and the Germans will be taking control of the negotiations in order to sell us cars. Having said that are we waiting for this to happen one minute before we leave.
Murph7355 said:
Because if May' s deal is anything like Chequers - and I cannot see it being anything better than that, unless even the EU recognise it's a piss take that has no chance of success - then in any material sense it is not leaving the EU.
And leaving the EU is what we voted for in 2016, it's very clearly what her manifesto was based on in 2017 when she won more votes than any government in 20yrs and it's what she was consistently saying up until Chequers.
Politicians, it would seem, have yet to learn that the rise of "populism" is because people of all persuasions are sick to the back teeth of politicians lying to the electorate and breaking pledges. They need to wake up quickly.
We are ceasing to be a member state, we will not have any MEP's, we will not be liable to ongoing subscriptions, we will not be in the CU/SM, we will have control of our borders.And leaving the EU is what we voted for in 2016, it's very clearly what her manifesto was based on in 2017 when she won more votes than any government in 20yrs and it's what she was consistently saying up until Chequers.
Politicians, it would seem, have yet to learn that the rise of "populism" is because people of all persuasions are sick to the back teeth of politicians lying to the electorate and breaking pledges. They need to wake up quickly.
I am really struggling to see how leavers are claiming we are not leaving in any material sense.
It will be up to parliament to accept or reject the deal May has secured. That's what leavers wanted to happen is it not?
Murph7355 said:
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
Because if May' s deal is anything like Chequers - and I cannot see it being anything better than that, unless even the EU recognise it's a piss take that has no chance of success - then in any material sense it is not leaving the EU.And leaving the EU is what we voted for in 2016, it's very clearly what her manifesto was based on in 2017 when she won more votes than any government in 20yrs and it's what she was consistently saying up until Chequers.
Politicians, it would seem, have yet to learn that the rise of "populism" is because people of all persuasions are sick to the back teeth of politicians lying to the electorate and breaking pledges. They need to wake up quickly.
GroundEffect said:
So, is the Commons vote now considered a good thing?
I can't keep up.
No one knows where brexiters are from day to day. I can only assume Supreme Leader May who brexiters said must be allowed to do it without oversight, is now unfavourable and now the ‘enemies of the people’ are those who can now save us from her?I can't keep up.
That is about it at the moment I think
don'tbesilly said:
Meanwhile the queue gets longer on those stating regardless of whether there are Cabinet resignations today/tomorrow or over the next coming weeks, the deal will be voted down in the HoC.
Of course they are, because people who aren't happy with the deal want the government to reconsider. Let's not pretend there's a clear majority either way at the moment though.Labour aren't confirming anything until they've read the deal - Rebecca Long-Bailey was completely non-committal on R4 this morning however they're definitely not saying that they'll be voting against the deal regardless. You've got a group of Tories who predictably have got upset because their Wrexit fantasy isn't on offer and isn't going to happen. The DUP... Well, I'm not sure anyone really cares about what the DUP think and, depending on what Labour do, they could be irrelevant anyway.
JagLover said:
The only way to be sure of how "seriously" they are taken is for them to split off and form their own party
I suspect that the opinions of the membership, and of most of the Conservative vote, is more closely aligned to them than it is with May and her betrayal.
In which case, before ceding the party to the Remainers, would it not be better to stay and deal with the Remainer MPs through vigorous local party activism? Securing their wholesale deselection and replacement with candidates who can be relied to deliver their manifesto commitments seems to me a more constructive way forward. I suspect that the opinions of the membership, and of most of the Conservative vote, is more closely aligned to them than it is with May and her betrayal.
Local parties could also call in all the loans that currently keep CCO afloat, and future subs withheld until the Party is made more accountable and democratic.
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