How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
We understand why you seem to happy with chequers what you don't seem to realise is that everybody else would be disappointed if they bought what they thought was a Ferrari only to be given this...
MrBarry123 said:
don'tbesilly said:
Meanwhile the queue gets longer on those stating regardless of whether there are Cabinet resignations today/tomorrow or over the next coming weeks, the deal will be voted down in the HoC.
Of course they are, because people who aren't happy with the deal want the government to reconsider. Let's not pretend there's a clear majority either way at the moment though.Labour aren't confirming anything until they've read the deal - Rebecca Long-Bailey was completely non-committal on R4 this morning however they're definitely not saying that they'll be voting against the deal regardless. You've got a group of Tories who predictably have got upset because their Wrexit fantasy isn't on offer and isn't going to happen. The DUP... Well, I'm not sure anyone really cares about what the DUP think and, depending on what Labour do, they could be irrelevant anyway.
It's amazing you can just discount the importance the DUP has in propping the Tories up.
Vanden Saab said:
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
We understand why you seem to happy with chequers what you don't seem to realise is that everybody else would be disappointed if they bought what they thought was a Ferrari only to be given this...
This sums up brexiters to a tee.
They voted yes to ‘any car other than what we have now’ and assumed they were getting a Ferrari....
PurpleMoonlight said:
We are ceasing to be a member state, we will not have any MEP's, we will not be liable to ongoing subscriptions, we will not be in the CU/SM, we will have control of our borders.
I am really struggling to see how leavers are claiming we are not leaving in any material sense.
It will be up to parliament to accept or reject the deal May has secured. That's what leavers wanted to happen is it not?
The issue is that Leavers were promised Cake by their Overlords who abandoned the process when they saw it was going to flop. Thus, we have Leavers whining more than usual and throwing tantrums. I am really struggling to see how leavers are claiming we are not leaving in any material sense.
It will be up to parliament to accept or reject the deal May has secured. That's what leavers wanted to happen is it not?
If we go back to the very first Thread, all this was predicted by Remainers. It was always obvious that Leavers would b
h and moan because they could never be given what they were promised, only an EU Lite or a damaging No Deal. You are correct to point out that the elected Government is securing a technical Leave and therefore fulfilling the basic mandate of Brexit. Sadly, they could never do so to the satisfaction of all Leavers given the absurdity of the fairy tales most Leavers gullibly bought into.
Leavers are embarrassed now, they can see they were wrong but will argue simpleton solutions and crazy ignorant ideals in a ridiculous attempt to save face. It is amusing to watch them degrade themselves this way.
Vanden Saab said:
We understand why you seem to happy with chequers what you don't seem to realise is that everybody else would be disappointed if they bought what they thought was a Ferrari only to be given this...
Quite. But, oh, look! Are we getting some lovely fake Borrani wheels for free with it? Wonderful. What's your problem?
p1stonhead said:
Vanden Saab said:
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
We understand why you seem to happy with chequers what you don't seem to realise is that everybody else would be disappointed if they bought what they thought was a Ferrari only to be given this...This sums up brexiters to a tee.
They voted yes to ‘any car other than what we have now’ and assumed they were getting a Ferrari....
Coolbanana said:
You are correct to point out that the elected Government is securing a technical Leave and therefore fulfilling the basic mandate of Brexit. Sadly, they could never do so to the satisfaction of all Leavers given the absurdity of the fairy tales most Leavers gullibly bought into.
I'm not stating it's a 'technical' leave. I'm stating it's a full on leave in every sense.There was always going to be some form of relationship with the EU. It's up to parliament to decide how close or distant that is, based on what the EU is willing to agree to.
Coolbanana said:
Leavers are embarrassed now, they can see they were wrong but will argue simpleton solutions and crazy ignorant ideals in a ridiculous attempt to save face. It is amusing to watch them degrade themselves this way.
You're absolutely correct - I simply don't understand why I could possibly think an approach already in use across Europe and the globe could possibly have worked. I'm so stupid. So please, enlighten me and I'll follow whatever path you wish me to lead - what, exactly, is the issue with the 'simpleton solution' of a technically managed AEO preclearance style approach to the border? Idealistic, I know, but I'm just not capable of finding the flaw in it.
Please help, I'm relying on your magnanimity.
Sway said:
Coolbanana said:
Leavers are embarrassed now, they can see they were wrong but will argue simpleton solutions and crazy ignorant ideals in a ridiculous attempt to save face. It is amusing to watch them degrade themselves this way.
You're absolutely correct - I simply don't understand why I could possibly think an approach already in use across Europe and the globe could possibly have worked. I'm so stupid. So please, enlighten me and I'll follow whatever path you wish me to lead - what, exactly, is the issue with the 'simpleton solution' of a technically managed AEO preclearance style approach to the border? Idealistic, I know, but I'm just not capable of finding the flaw in it.
Please help, I'm relying on your magnanimity.
PurpleMoonlight said:
No it doesn't necessarily follow. Chequers made it clear the UK would still be able to effect trade deals. Of course we don't know yet how closed the backstop is to this.
From what I have read, leaving would effectively involve an independent arbitrator if the UK & EU didn't agree.
No, a customs union means that tariffs etc apply at the border between the customs union and the outside world. If the UK is in 'a' customs union with the EU, then it's in 'the' customs union. From what I have read, leaving would effectively involve an independent arbitrator if the UK & EU didn't agree.
If you won't listen to me, listen to Barnier's deputy.
Sabine Weyand said:
We should be in the best negotiation position for the future relationship. This requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship… They must align their rules but the EU will retain all the controls. They apply the same rules. UK wants a lot more from future relationship, so EU retains its leverage.”
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Wednesday 14th November 09:22
Coolbanana said:
p1stonhead said:
This sums up brexiters to a tee.
They voted yes to ‘any car other than what we have now’ and assumed they were getting a Ferrari....
A very good analogy! Sums them up perfectly.
Brilliant, utterly brilliant.
Leave were told they were being lied to.
Post referendum the Brexiteer poster boys were nowhere to be seen as they knew their promises were lies and undeliverable. We then had a democratic election, so Leave really need to get behind TM as she is delivering the best Brexit possible. That's democracy!!!!
I do wonder if the tory party in its present form can survive this Brexit fiasco?
I can see a Centrist Tory/Labour pro EU party emerging with a hard right, anti EU UKIP/ERG tory hybrid on one side and an anti EU, Hard Left Labour/Socialist Worker cabal on the other side.
What wonderfully interesting times we have in British politics at the moment.
We need to see the detail, but if as reported the UK cant leave the CU without the EU having agreed a future FTA then that is not leaving the EU and will not get through parliament.
There will be zero incentive for the EU to agree a future FTA in a timely fashion with that setup. Why would they turn the UK money flow off?
I would expect all the talk on the CU is deliberately sidelining any info on a deal on continued FOM.
There will be zero incentive for the EU to agree a future FTA in a timely fashion with that setup. Why would they turn the UK money flow off?
I would expect all the talk on the CU is deliberately sidelining any info on a deal on continued FOM.
Piha said:
Brilliant, utterly brilliant.
Leave were told they were being lied to.
Post referendum the Brexiteer poster boys were nowhere to be seen as they knew their promises were lies and undeliverable. We then had a democratic election, so Leave really need to get behind TM as she is delivering the best Brexit possible. That's democracy!!!!
I do wonder if the tory party in its present form can survive this Brexit fiasco?
I can see a Centrist Tory/Labour pro EU party emerging with a hard right, anti EU UKIP/ERG tory hybrid on one side and an anti EU, Hard Left Labour/Socialist Worker cabal on the other side.
What wonderfully interesting times we have in British politics at the moment.
jsf said:
We need to see the detail, but if as reported the UK cant leave the CU without the EU having agreed a future FTA then that is not leaving the EU and will not get through parliament.
There will be zero incentive for the EU to agree a future FTA in a timely fashion with that setup. Why would they turn the UK money flow off?
I would expect all the talk on the CU is deliberately sidelining any info on a deal on continued FOM.
Can’t argue with your logic, surely the EU must know this though. After the example of Cameron’s attempt to improve our deal failed with the end result being the referendum, surely they don’t think were bluffing on this and are going to retract s50 rather than leave without a deal?There will be zero incentive for the EU to agree a future FTA in a timely fashion with that setup. Why would they turn the UK money flow off?
I would expect all the talk on the CU is deliberately sidelining any info on a deal on continued FOM.
JagLover said:
Hence "vassalage" we are bound to the EU in a relationship we cannot legally escape from, and where we have to accept any rules, in the areas agreed, the EU decides to impose.
You realise that if you want to trade with the EU, or the US, or China, that's an inevitable part of the package, don't you? William Hague was very good on R4 this morning. Sensible, reasonable, pragmatic. Shame some of the bed wetting dummy spitting vocal Tories can't be more like him. The idea that a Labour Government led by Corbyn is an acceptable price to pay in order to torpedo the current proposal (and to get something arguably a lot worse under Labour, with the bonus of Labour's economic carnage thrown in for free) is frankly unhinged.
Piha said:
I can see a Centrist Tory/Labour pro EU party emerging with a hard right, anti EU UKIP/ERG tory hybrid on one side and an anti EU, Hard Left Labour/Socialist Worker cabal on the other side.
Greg66 said:
You realise that if you want to trade with the EU, or the US, or China, that's an inevitable part of the package, don't you?
William Hague was very good on R4 this morning. Sensible, reasonable, pragmatic. Shame some of the bed wetting dummy spitting vocal Tories can't be more like him. The idea that a Labour Government led by Corbyn is an acceptable price to pay in order to torpedo the current proposal (and to get something arguably a lot worse under Labour, with the bonus of Labour's economic carnage thrown in for free) is frankly unhinged.
Throwing away a thousand years of freedom to sat our own laws seems slightly more unhinged.William Hague was very good on R4 this morning. Sensible, reasonable, pragmatic. Shame some of the bed wetting dummy spitting vocal Tories can't be more like him. The idea that a Labour Government led by Corbyn is an acceptable price to pay in order to torpedo the current proposal (and to get something arguably a lot worse under Labour, with the bonus of Labour's economic carnage thrown in for free) is frankly unhinged.
Vanden Saab said:
mx5nut said:
Why can't Brexiters get behind May's deal and try to make a success of it instead of talking our democratically elected government down? We survived two world wars, we can survive this. We just need a bit more positive thinking instead of the Brexiter doom and gloom!
We understand why you seem to happy with chequers what you don't seem to realise is that everybody else would be disappointed if they bought what they thought was a Ferrari only to be given this..."WAAHAHHHAAAH! I WANT AN ICE CREAM!!"
"Here, have an ice cream."
"WAAHAHHHAAAH! I DON'T WANT THIS ICE CREAM! I WANT A DIFFERENT ICE CREAM!"
"Well what sort of ice cream would you like?"
"WAAHAHHHAAAH! I WANT AN ICE CREAM!!"
Repeat in an endless attritional loop.
ETA: beaten to it by p1stonhead.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 14th November 09:21
Greg66 said:
JagLover said:
Hence "vassalage" we are bound to the EU in a relationship we cannot legally escape from, and where we have to accept any rules, in the areas agreed, the EU decides to impose.
You realise that if you want to trade with the EU, or the US, or China, that's an inevitable part of the package, don't you? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff