How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

[don'tbesilly]

gooner1 said:

Jockman said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

May is due to give a statement to parliament at 3.30 pm.

Smashing. I’ll be half cut by then. She always sounds better after a drink.

She's definitely a 14 pinter.

You say that, but some are so in love with the Chequers proposal, even some ardent Remainers on PH, just some Lucozade to keep them going would suffice.

[Tuna]

Jonesy23 said:

I think you might be confused about the various positions.

The DUP aren't the ones who want an open border inside Ireland or want to maintain the CU. They're the ones who want NI to be treated like any other part of the UK.

It's the other side and the boys in the South who want an open border etc. etc. as a pretty transparent attempt to get a united Ireland via the back door.

And that is something the DUP will never support.

That was what I was driving at. The DUP don't want to be subsumed by a completely open border, but they're also saying that they oppose *any* special treatment of goods travelling through Northern Ireland as I understand it. That cake and eat it requirement leaves the UK with virtually no room for manoeuvre when it comes to the EU - hence May coming up with insanely complex UK-wide customs proposals.

Against that, most of the technical solutions that allow a 'soft' border require that NI carries out at least some checks to prevent smuggling. That's possible without needing a hard border, as both the UK and the EU have acknowledged. If the DUP were to accept that they have to police the border somehow, then the UK as a whole could present a united approach to the EU. Instead, we're trying to negotiate with one hand tied behind our back. We can't have a sensible negotiation about where the checks are carried out if we can't even decide amongst ourselves what checks should be carried out.

[powerstroke]

PurpleMoonlight said:

May is due to give a statement to parliament at 3.30 pm.

Is she going to have Oily hanged as a traitor ???

[The Dangerous Elk]

powerstroke said:

Is she going to have Oily hanged as a traitor ???

Oily is up-loading to her BrexitChip as we speak. Hope he has fixed the dance mode/walk mode glitch.

(edit: double chip)

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Monday 15th October 15:51

[anonymous-user]

powerstroke said:

Is she going to have Oily hanged as a traitor ???

Arise sir Ollie of Strasbourg.

[alfie2244]

Nope no dancing or Abba

[anonymous-user]

On the subject of Northern Ireland is there any meaningful opposition to the "Irish Sea Border" other than from the DUP?

Could everyone else get behind a solution whereby NI stayed in the SM/CU and the rest of the UK did "full brexit"?

Packaged properly it could be a real shot in the arm for the area as it could begin to offer gateway services for companies that up to know have set up offices in the EU.

Would the Tories get behind that if it allowed a "cleaner" brexit the the rest of the UK?

[dazwalsh]

desolate said:

On the subject of Northern Ireland is there any meaningful opposition to the "Irish Sea Border" other than from the DUP?

Could everyone else get behind a solution whereby NI stayed in the SM/CU and the rest of the UK did "full brexit"?

Packaged properly it could be a real shot in the arm for the area as it could begin to offer gateway services for companies that up to know have set up offices in the EU.

Would the Tories get behind that if it allowed a "cleaner" brexit the the rest of the UK?

They would have half a chance if the corporation tax level for NI was equivalent to that of the ROI.

As for accepting that, i would say into the high 90’s percentage wise that would be rejected.

[PurpleMoonlight]

May's statement reminded me of what Davis used to say.

All fluff and no substance.

[Vanden Saab]

desolate said:

On the subject of Northern Ireland is there any meaningful opposition to the "Irish Sea Border" other than from the DUP?

Could everyone else get behind a solution whereby NI stayed in the SM/CU and the rest of the UK did "full brexit"?

Packaged properly it could be a real shot in the arm for the area as it could begin to offer gateway services for companies that up to know have set up offices in the EU.

Would the Tories get behind that if it allowed a "cleaner" brexit the the rest of the UK?

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

[soupdragon1]

Murph7355 said:

soupdragon1 said:

We can't just do what we want with our own borders - as part of Brexit negotiations, we have to agree what the border agreements will look like. Its not like cancelling your Netflix subscription - ie, I've had enough, bye bye.
I think the misunderstanding is over border 'controls' rather than the actual border itself. Yes, we can take more control over the borders, but we can't just say 'we don't want them'.

You are suggesting that the UK MUST have manned checkpoints on the actual NI border and MUST check ALL goods crossing between RoI into NI if we cannot agree a deal?

There must be a border yes. Is it the UK or EU responsibility to do that, I'm not sure.

[anonymous-user]

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

No.

I was suggesting is as it could actually be economically advantageous for Northern Ireland.

Plenty of firms have set up offices/branches in the EU since the referendum. This could have happened in Belfast with some planning. That horse has long since bolted but there will be opportunities on the future

[wisbech]

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

Sovereign nations, not nation. We allow NI to have different laws on abortion and same sex marriage. England has a different education system to Scotland, and then there is the sublime weirdness of Channel Islands and Isle of Man that are not part of the UK, but have loyalty to the Crown. Not sure why different levels of VAT are any worse than different laws on abortion, or different official religions with different theology. Church of Scotland are calvinists.

Edited to add that Scotland can have different income tax rates, so the principle that tax must be uniform is not valid.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:18

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:22

[Vanden Saab]

wisbech said:

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

Sovereign nations, not nation. We allow NI to have different laws on abortion and same sex marriage. England has a different education system to Scotland, and then there is the sublime weirdness of Channel Islands and Isle of Man that are not part of the UK, but have loyalty to the Crown. Not sure why different levels of VAT are any worse than different laws on abortion, or different official religions with different theology. Church of Scotland are calvinists.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:18

In that case why shouldn't it be Ireland that aligns itself with the UK?

[wisbech]

Because of some unpleasantness between 1916 and 1922 if you refer to the South. If you refer to the North, because it has been their democratic will not to (on moral issues like abortion and same sex marriage).

[slow_poke]

Vanden Saab said:

wisbech said:

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

Sovereign nations, not nation. We allow NI to have different laws on abortion and same sex marriage. England has a different education system to Scotland, and then there is the sublime weirdness of Channel Islands and Isle of Man that are not part of the UK, but have loyalty to the Crown. Not sure why different levels of VAT are any worse than different laws on abortion, or different official religions with different theology. Church of Scotland are calvinists.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:18

In that case why shouldn't it be Ireland that aligns itself with the UK?

Because: Cold Day In Hell.

Hope that clarifies for you. Ireland is the EU. Deal with the EU.

[gooner1]

slow_poke said:

Vanden Saab said:

wisbech said:

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

Sovereign nations, not nation. We allow NI to have different laws on abortion and same sex marriage. England has a different education system to Scotland, and then there is the sublime weirdness of Channel Islands and Isle of Man that are not part of the UK, but have loyalty to the Crown. Not sure why different levels of VAT are any worse than different laws on abortion, or different official religions with different theology. Church of Scotland are calvinists.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:18

In that case why shouldn't it be Ireland that aligns itself with the UK?

Because: Cold Day In Hell.

Hope that clarifies for you. Ireland is the EU. Deal with the EU.

Are you saying the ROI want the type of border the. EU seem set on insisting on?

[paul.deitch]

Watching/reading today's events in Parliament made me think of Alice in Wonderland. Everybody keeps restating their views as loudly as possible with their fingers in their ears.
Can't wait for it to be over however it turns out. So many other important issues are being sidelined.

[slow_poke]

gooner1 said:

slow_poke said:

Vanden Saab said:

wisbech said:

Vanden Saab said:

Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?

Sovereign nations, not nation. We allow NI to have different laws on abortion and same sex marriage. England has a different education system to Scotland, and then there is the sublime weirdness of Channel Islands and Isle of Man that are not part of the UK, but have loyalty to the Crown. Not sure why different levels of VAT are any worse than different laws on abortion, or different official religions with different theology. Church of Scotland are calvinists.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 15th October 16:18

In that case why shouldn't it be Ireland that aligns itself with the UK?

Because: Cold Day In Hell.

Hope that clarifies for you. Ireland is the EU. Deal with the EU.

Are you saying the ROI want the type of border the. EU seem set on insisting on?

Brexit is no idea of the EU's, it's all on the UK.

UK needs to engage with reality - their Brexit choice will change the status quo in Ireland. It's facile and juvenile to imagine the UK can just walk away from the consequences of their own decision and then blame everyone else apart from themselves.

The Irish border can be solved - BritGov should get on with solving it.

[nyxster]

I think the Irish are mainly concerned that with all the tarmac laying caravan dwellers and dog smugglers unable to freely cross the border to relieve railtrack of their ‘scrap’ metal they’ll be stuck with them.