How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
The Tories have been cranking up the blame narrative for probably about a year. It’s now in full flow from the likes of Boris and the rest Of the fringe, but they’ll all be at it soon. From Davies talking about how the EU should be ‘flexible and imaginative’... that was never the remit for the EU, but gave him the excuse that when they were not sufficiently flexible in his view, they were liable to be blamed. Blame is all they now have left to dispense whatever deal or non deal gets cobbled together.
WCZ said:
andymadmak said:
I will also blame the British Government for their part in this sorry debacle of a negotiation, specifically for being so utterly inept and lacking in vision.
What I will not do is blame the people who voted (either way) for exercising their democratic choice. The people decided, and the people have rightly expected their elected politicians to do a better job than has been the case.
yep, I'd argue that if leaving causes a massive catastrophe then we never should have been offered the vote in the first place What I will not do is blame the people who voted (either way) for exercising their democratic choice. The people decided, and the people have rightly expected their elected politicians to do a better job than has been the case.
Always amusing to see people propose parliamentary meritocracy, as though that in any way applies when Abbott can become Shadow Home Sec.
king arthur said:
That needs the qualifier "business which imports from the EU".
The same tariffs will be applied to ROTW goods whether we end up in the customs union or not since as I understand it we've submitted a tariff schedule to the WTO which is equivalent to the EU one (which has already been objected to by a few countries)..
I believe we have too, but don't forget they will apply to all imports from countries where the EU have a trade agreement, because they will cease to apply to us.The same tariffs will be applied to ROTW goods whether we end up in the customs union or not since as I understand it we've submitted a tariff schedule to the WTO which is equivalent to the EU one (which has already been objected to by a few countries)..
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
They can't blame anyone but themselves if we get a no deal Brexit.
They certainly can't blame the EU for letting them leave or any other reason.
What is with this whole 'blame' narrative? Does it stem from a mindset that believes that the UK will be looking for someone to blame? I am not looking for anyone to blame. I voted out, and hopefully, that is what we will get (rather than some Chequers style fudge) They certainly can't blame the EU for letting them leave or any other reason.
Now, if we end up in a scenario where the peoples of both the UK and various EU nations are suffering unnecessarily (trade-wise) as a result of a no-deal Brexit, then I will lay at least some of the blame at the doors of EU politicians, both at the Brussels level and that of the national Governments that drive policy within the EU (Mostly France and Germany)
I will blame them insofar as they will have caused the people to suffer harm simply in order to preserve an entirely artificial political construct. (It is the job of Governments to help and protect their peoples, not to deliberately harm them)
I will also blame the British Government for their part in this sorry debacle of a negotiation, specifically for being so utterly inept and lacking in vision.
What I will not do is blame the people who voted (either way) for exercising their democratic choice. The people decided, and the people have rightly expected their elected politicians to do a better job than has been the case.
Do you blame the politicians in the EU for making the EU so toxic as to be a place that the majority of UK voters (who actually participated) no longer wish to be a member of it? Or do you subscribe to the rather more simplistic "It's cos the Daily Mail innit!" mantra?
No one else has seen one for over two years
PurpleMoonlight said:
Bet brexit doesn't bring less bureaucracy.
But UK politicians will then be accountable. If then they propose something as costly and bureaucratic as GDPR they will be directly accountable to those affected.
One charity I worked on this year blamed GDPR from putting them from surplus into substantial loss. They do not export a single good or service to the EU.....
PurpleMoonlight said:
king arthur said:
That needs the qualifier "business which imports from the EU".
The same tariffs will be applied to ROTW goods whether we end up in the customs union or not since as I understand it we've submitted a tariff schedule to the WTO which is equivalent to the EU one (which has already been objected to by a few countries)..
I believe we have too, but don't forget they will apply to all imports from countries where the EU have a trade agreement, because they will cease to apply to us.The same tariffs will be applied to ROTW goods whether we end up in the customs union or not since as I understand it we've submitted a tariff schedule to the WTO which is equivalent to the EU one (which has already been objected to by a few countries)..
Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
don'tbesilly said:
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
They can't blame anyone but themselves if we get a no deal Brexit.
They certainly can't blame the EU for letting them leave or any other reason.
What is with this whole 'blame' narrative? Does it stem from a mindset that believes that the UK will be looking for someone to blame? I am not looking for anyone to blame. I voted out, and hopefully, that is what we will get (rather than some Chequers style fudge) They certainly can't blame the EU for letting them leave or any other reason.
Now, if we end up in a scenario where the peoples of both the UK and various EU nations are suffering unnecessarily (trade-wise) as a result of a no-deal Brexit, then I will lay at least some of the blame at the doors of EU politicians, both at the Brussels level and that of the national Governments that drive policy within the EU (Mostly France and Germany)
I will blame them insofar as they will have caused the people to suffer harm simply in order to preserve an entirely artificial political construct. (It is the job of Governments to help and protect their peoples, not to deliberately harm them)
I will also blame the British Government for their part in this sorry debacle of a negotiation, specifically for being so utterly inept and lacking in vision.
What I will not do is blame the people who voted (either way) for exercising their democratic choice. The people decided, and the people have rightly expected their elected politicians to do a better job than has been the case.
Do you blame the politicians in the EU for making the EU so toxic as to be a place that the majority of UK voters (who actually participated) no longer wish to be a member of it? Or do you subscribe to the rather more simplistic "It's cos the Daily Mail innit!" mantra?
No one else has seen one for over two years
As you can see he blames a lot.
Sway said:
What's been submitted is merely the regime to apply during any agreed transition period.
Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
Isn't there an argument that if we try to copy/paste existing EU trade agreements the EU have a veto on it?Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
Sway said:
If leaving causes such a massive catastrophe, then how the bloody hell did we manage to be signed up to it (note, not the EEC) without a vote by the populace?
Always amusing to see people propose parliamentary meritocracy, as though that in any way applies when Abbott can become Shadow Home Sec.
because at the time we didn't realize we'd become dependent on it or it'd evolve into what it's become Always amusing to see people propose parliamentary meritocracy, as though that in any way applies when Abbott can become Shadow Home Sec.
we are dependent on loads of other things but it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way the world is
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
What's been submitted is merely the regime to apply during any agreed transition period.
Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
Isn't there an argument that if we try to copy/paste existing EU trade agreements the EU have a veto on it?Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
You're likely confusing distributing of existing tariff quotas under existing deals - that's been sorted with the EU, there may be challenge from the counterparties.
PurpleMoonlight said:
I believe we have too, but don't forget they will apply to all imports from countries where the EU have a trade agreement, because they will cease to apply to us.
True buta) the list of countries the EU has trade deals with isn't a very impressive one and they include a lot of countries with which the deal hasn't been ratified or still in the negotiation stage, and
b) having a trade deal with a country doesn't necessarily mean no tariffs are applied to their goods.
So yes, the business environment is uncertain but on the question of tariffs I'm more concerned about what Trump is doing than about a no deal Brexit.
Ghibli said:
So you will blame the EU for letting us leave without a deal but not the people who voted to leave.
Not quite.. But your choice of language is interesting. 'letting us leave'? Since when did the EU become Hotel California? The people who voted to leave were entirely within their rights to do so.
Who says so? Why the EU itself says so, does it not?
The legal structure of the EU contains a method/process for leaving. Surely when the architects of the various EU treaties wrote these clauses into them they did so in the full and certain knowledge that at some point in the future one or more states may seek to exercise those clauses?
Otherwise why include them? Is it a crime for a country to exercise a clause in a legal treaty? Is it a crime for a majority decision, freely voted on by almost 34 million people, to be implemented?
Now, what I would blame the EU for would be for making a process that is enshrined in their own treaties more difficult than it needs to be, even though in doing so they are damaging their own people.
A favourite analogy for Brexit on PH is the Gym Membership question..... So I ask you, is it normal for a gym to punish its remaining members when another member wants to leave?
Ghibli said:
Brexit is the will of the UK people.
At last! You're getting the message! Isn't democracy a wonderful thing? 
Oh, and any chance of an answer to my earlier questions?
Edited by andymadmak on Tuesday 16th October 16:35
Sway said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
What's been submitted is merely the regime to apply during any agreed transition period.
Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
Isn't there an argument that if we try to copy/paste existing EU trade agreements the EU have a veto on it?Also note, that the majority of the trade deals we currently operate under as a member of the EU were signed very, very quickly - as they were the core reason why we were dragging our heels in joining in the first place.
Look at the list - huge quantity of commonwealth and EFTA agreements, grandfathered in rapidly and applied across the EEC/EU.
You're likely confusing distributing of existing tariff quotas under existing deals - that's been sorted with the EU, there may be challenge from the counterparties.
alfie2244 said:
Sway said:
If leaving causes such a massive catastrophe, then how the bloody hell did we manage to be signed up to it (note, not the EEC) without a vote by the populace?
A very salient point IMO.WCZ said:
Sway said:
If leaving causes such a massive catastrophe, then how the bloody hell did we manage to be signed up to it (note, not the EEC) without a vote by the populace?
Always amusing to see people propose parliamentary meritocracy, as though that in any way applies when Abbott can become Shadow Home Sec.
because at the time we didn't realize we'd become dependent on it or it'd evolve into what it's become Always amusing to see people propose parliamentary meritocracy, as though that in any way applies when Abbott can become Shadow Home Sec.
we are dependent on loads of other things but it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way the world is
It's simply disgraceful that none of those signatories weren't forced to say "this is it, the point of no return, what say you?" to the electorate.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Sway said:
If leaving causes such a massive catastrophe, then how the bloody hell did we manage to be signed up to it (note, not the EEC) without a vote by the populace?
A very salient point IMO.Sway said:
No. Why would that possibly be the case?
You're likely confusing distributing of existing tariff quotas under existing deals - that's been sorted with the EU, there may be challenge from the counterparties.
You're likely confusing distributing of existing tariff quotas under existing deals - that's been sorted with the EU, there may be challenge from the counterparties.
I don't believe I am.
It was something to do with international treaty law. I can't remember where I read it now though.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Sway said:
If leaving causes such a massive catastrophe, then how the bloody hell did we manage to be signed up to it (note, not the EEC) without a vote by the populace?
A very salient point IMO.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff