The People's Vote - which way would you vote?

[HoHoHo]

amusingduck said:

HoHoHo said:

dandarez said:

IF Remoaners had read the Gov leaflet distributed to every household (although we - my family - did not receive one, and I was in Cameron's constituency of all places! Therefore I read mine online) perhaps they'd have realised it was a 'ONCE IN A GENERATION VOTE'.

The leaflet - printed in the EU ffs! - and paid for by 'us', was sheer propaganda to stay. It pushed as much as it could for us to stay, every page was devoted to staying put, yet in our wise wisdom we decided to leave. A democratic vote. End of.

If Remoaners could not understand the words, hard cheese.
Some remoaners were apathetic and didn't even bother to vote.
Hard cheese again if you fail to understand the importance of a X.

On Thursday, 23rd June there will be a referendum.
It’s your opportunity to decide if the UK remains in the European Union (EU).
It’s a big decision.
One that will affect you, your family and your children for decades to come.

I found that fairly easy to comprehend in a few words. Much of what Remoaners constantly day in, day out, moan about was in the leaflet.
As said if remoaners couldn't understand its importance, that says more about them than those who voted to leave!

Much of what you say is of course true.

However, without a shadow of a doubt the votes that were cast on that day were based on untruths and lies - fact, and that was from both sides!

<missing explanation of how a second referendum won't suffer the same lies, fiction and untruths>

So, why not let everyone who voted previously have a second go based on hard facts rather than fiction?

You missed the most important part of your post?

I’d like to think we now have a much clearer understand of the situation.

However to add a caveat I would suggest for example the vote should be based on a known deal or no deal or whatever so you are definitely voting for what you want, not what they think it might be.

[HoHoHo]

Leicester Loyal said:

HoHoHo said:

Much of what you say is of course true.

However, without a shadow of a doubt the votes that were cast on that day were based on untruths and lies - fact, and that was from both sides!

So, why not let everyone who voted previously have a second go based on hard facts rather than fiction?

Do you honestly believe what's been said so far is all hard facts? It's still all fiction, as we don't know how we'll fare once we leave.

The vote was leave, grow up and accept it, it's embarrassing for us all.

When we have the facts then we can vote on them.

And if having an opinion means I need to grow up then so be it.

[HoHoHo]

LimaDelta said:

Exactly. You think last weekend was a big turnout? The Poll Tax riots will look like a village fete if the decision to leave is reversed. Brexit was a cry for help for many desperate communities. If they are betrayed by a bunch of selfish luvvies then yes, I think democracy as we know it will cease to exist.

How on earth was voting out a cry for help - or are you suggesting it was a protest vote against the EU in which case I’m bloody sure it’s communities actually benefitted financially and directly from the EU in one way or another

If we leave without a deal you wait until the roads in and out of the UK grind to a halt, then let’s see who’s upset their favourite produce isn’t available or has gone up in price.

Do those who voted out not realise what this means for the economy? Have you no idea how free trade and movement currently benefits us and Europe alike and all that may halt like a light switch being turned off certainly for some time?

[HoHoHo]

LimaDelta said:

bhstewie said:

HoHoHo said:

How on earth was voting out a cry for help - or are you suggesting it was a protest vote against the EU in which case I’m bloody sure it’s communities actually benefitted financially and directly from the EU in one way or another

I remember at the time of the result in some of the voter interviews hearing some comments such as "I voted to teach the government a lesson" and a few comments that were, to paraphrase "well the government told me to vote remain so I voted leave to show them".

Anecdotal of course.

That and some of the highest proportion of leave voting regions were some of the most deprived in the UK? Maybe you could explain to them how EU membership and an influx of cheap labour has benefited their communities?

If they could be bothered to google the question they would be surprised.

Because they didn’t appear to benefit themselves the EU did nothing......

How wrong were these young voters.

Anyway, I’m now about to drive back from Amsterdam and will be home tonight hopefully. Something I doubt I’ll be able to to do quite so easily next April.

Edited for fat fingers on an iPhone

Edited by HoHoHo on Wednesday 24th October 21:53

[HoHoHo]

LimaDelta said:

Are you sure driving is wise in your state? That post seems a little, erm, fractured.

Anyway, I am in France, and will be flying home soon, and I'm sure I will be able to do it just as easily next April.

You probably will however we’re in larger vehicles that will suddenly require customs checks etc.

But the Brexiteers didn’t think of that.

[HoHoHo]

amgmcqueen said:

s2art said:

HoHoHo said:

Anyway, I’m now about to drive back from Amsterdam and will be home tonight having. Something I doubt I’ll be able to to do quite so easily next April.

Why?

Are we supposed to care?

You see that’s the difference - I do care about my staff and paying my bills.

I hope your employer won’t be in trouble once long lines of vehicles, customs checks and additional costs/administrative costs are suddenly added to the invoices.

That only means one thing......

Higher prices!

Edited to add I can’t be criticised for trying to look after my staff and secure our future!

The existing arrangements were in my opinion better than anything else I could see being offered - and nothing has changed so far.

Edited by HoHoHo on Wednesday 24th October 18:22

[HoHoHo]

NorfolkInClue1 said:

HoHoHo said:

But the Brexiteers didn’t think of that.

Sweeping ignorance with no evidence whatsoever, nothing, not a shred.

You voted on your situation, believe it or not, others didn't.
Your following statements about costs and delays are also speculation, but driven by a remain narrative.
You hopefully do understand that you get fed the media you choose and nothing is finished, therefore all the scenarios you produce are just that.
Can you maybe tell me why companies such as Warberers, one of the,if not the, biggest haulage company in Europe have set up and registered as a trading business in the U.K, along side many others?
I have no doubt you know more than me on some issues, those that affect you directly, however I get the feeling from your posts that you think your vote is more important, seems to be a theme from remain.....

As it happens I am a remoaner however I’d equally like a deal that included a customs agreement similar to that we have currently yet kept us out of the main EU crazy decision making process/laws et al.

Sadly I don’t think though you can have the best of all worlds and hence that’s why I voted to stay.

[HoHoHo]

s2art said:

HoHoHo said:

Anyway, I’m now about to drive back from Amsterdam and will be home tonight having. Something I doubt I’ll be able to to do quite so easily next April.

Why?

IF you have ever either exported or imported using DHL or whoever you will understand how time consuming the process can be.

If you have ever driven to Switzerland and gone through customs you will also know how bloody awkward it is, and that’s when you get the paperwork right - should it be wrong and that’s a whole new ball game.

Both processes require commodity codes, paperwork and god knows what and of course additional travelling time normally on both sides of the border. The Swiss aren’t being awkward, it’s just how it is.

Currently working in and out of the UK within the EU (as we have on many occasions this month alone) is a seamless simple process that benefits our clients and ultimately their clients be that whoever.

As I’ve said on many occasions, we simply don’t know how travelling will change but it’s likely to and I’m not sure it’s going to be easier, almost certainly more difficult. That will for sure have an effect on prices and that has to be passed on. Over the years we’ve experienced delays coming and going into Calais for example but they are few and far between and we simply take it and any other additional costs on the chin. If we have a 5% increase in our costs on every job then we’ll have no option but to increase costs. We’re a small business but can’t be unique by any means.

Another poster said be smart, that’s fine but much like VAT returns (which are going digital and far more complex as of mid-2019), HMRC PAYE and other official processes you can be smart but you still have to complete the paperwork and stay in the queue.

Anyway, I’m waiting now at the tunnel for my train home, 3 hours 15 minutes drive from Amsterdam and through ‘customs’ in 10 minutes. I’m hoping that continues in the future.

[HoHoHo]

Thats What She Said said:

HoHoHo said:

IF you have ever either exported or imported using DHL or whoever you will understand how time consuming the process can be.

If you have ever driven to Switzerland and gone through customs you will also know how bloody awkward it is, and that’s when you get the paperwork right - should it be wrong and that’s a whole new ball game.

Both processes require commodity codes, paperwork and god knows what and of course additional travelling time normally on both sides of the border. The Swiss aren’t being awkward, it’s just how it is.

Currently working in and out of the UK within the EU (as we have on many occasions this month alone) is a seamless simple process that benefits our clients and ultimately their clients be that whoever.

As I’ve said on many occasions, we simply don’t know how travelling will change but it’s likely to and I’m not sure it’s going to be easier, almost certainly more difficult. That will for sure have an effect on prices and that has to be passed on. Over the years we’ve experienced delays coming and going into Calais for example but they are few and far between and we simply take it and any other additional costs on the chin. If we have a 5% increase in our costs on every job then we’ll have no option but to increase costs. We’re a small business but can’t be unique by any means.

Another poster said be smart, that’s fine but much like VAT returns (which are going digital and far more complex as of mid-2019), HMRC PAYE and other official processes you can be smart but you still have to complete the paperwork and stay in the queue.

Anyway, I’m waiting now at the tunnel for my train home, 3 hours 15 minutes drive from Amsterdam and through ‘customs’ in 10 minutes. I’m hoping that continues in the future.

I worked in freight forwarding for nigh on 20 years, some was pre '93 and the single market.

We managed just fine then. Yes we had a lot of customs forms to do (on typewriters!), but believe it or not, we managed to export and import stuff from the EU without too many problems.

I’m suggesting it can’t be done, the world has changed and currently businesses run on a ‘just in time’ fashion as I’m sure you’re aware.

The amount and type of paperwork required has changed significantly over the last few years to the point of WTF’ness is going on!

If the worst happens then given time we’ll adjust accordingly however for many small businesses it could be the tipping point.

It would be somewhat ironic if companies like mine lost business in Europe to European competitors and then we had to start laying off staff due to reduced performance!

Hopefully that won’t be the case.....

[HoHoHo]

digimeistter said:

Allanv said:

Biker 1 said:

danllama said:

I've just seen this speech by the afd leader which is a nice little summary of why I voted to leave.

https://www.facebook.com/100009762165737/posts/733...

Blimey, eloquent speech - I concur completely!

I watched it earlier and completely agree with her.

Bang on!

And as a Remainer I thought that was a great speech, I’m up for that approach, let’s have the best of being part of the EU with none of the st.

Now, I’m sure we can all agree that sounds like a great idea and one that I for one would vote for - but how the hell is that ever going to happen?

Not for many, many years to come will that scenario possibly happen and I would suggest it will take more than the UK to leave to start the process of a unified organised group of close like-minded countries actually working together, working in harmony and not be dominated by one central bureaucratic group or overpaid individuals on petty laws of the size of bananas etc.

Interesting she mentioned free movement of skilled employed and self-employed EU workers but yet not being eligible for social security as a given - that already happens in the UK. You can’t simply turn up at Dover and get a house/tv/social security so we did as far as I’m aware actually have that little nugget sewn up

[HoHoHo]

amgmcqueen said:

There definitely needs to be a final vote on the Brexit deal.

Either: Accept deal
No deal (WTO)
Stay in EU.

So much has changed in the last 2+years......facts, implications and reality are now coming to the fore. People are now much better placed to make a decision on their future.

Oh no, now you’ve gone and done it, the Brexiteers are going to be foaming at the mouth such logical thoughts can be spoken on a public forum....

[HoHoHo]

gooner1 said:

HoHoHo said:

Oh no, now you’ve gone and done it, the Brexiteers are going to be foaming at the mouth such logical thoughts can be spoken on a public forum....

Right, so the purpose of the Poll , that you initiated, was not to illicit logical thought from
both sets of voters, it was in fact a thinly disguised attempt at trolling.
Glad that's been cleared up.

It appears that remainders want to discuss, Brexiteers simply get angry.

We know the result but it was flawed and based on lies - fact.

[HoHoHo]

Pan Pan Pan said:

djc206 said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Strangely I got two copies of the book of lies, but passed one on to a friend who was not living in the UK at the time so that he could have a good laugh too.

What lies were told in the pamphlet?

I am sorry but there really is not room here to go through them, but get a copy for your self if you don't already have one, and fill your boots.

Probably as many a Boris and his circus told those who voted out.

[HoHoHo]

Crackie said:

HoHoHo said:

It appears that remainders want to discuss, Brexiteers simply get angry.

What would you like to discuss?

p.s. how's business? getting near to your busy period isn't it?

I do discuss however some Brexiteers seem to be angry with their reponses. It’s easy simply to bark back ‘we won’ ‘get used to it’ but not actually discuss what might happen and how it may have an immediate effect on their lives. It’s easy to say fk the E.U., what have they ever done to us aside from be bds etc etc when actually there’s possibly an argument for a different vote and approach.

Business is brilliant thanks and yes, we’re very busy at the moment

[HoHoHo]

gooner1 said:

Crackie said:

HoHoHo said:

It appears that remainders want to discuss, Brexiteers simply get angry.

What would you like to discuss?

p.s. how's business? getting near to your busy period isn't it?

Do you meane the upcoming festive period?
Will there be Remaindeers?
Ho Ho Ho.

Ah......whoooossshhhhhh

That went right over my head

[HoHoHo]

kurt535 said:

don'tbesilly said:

kurt535 said:

digimeistter said:

NOTHING has changed in the last 2 years.

You are wasted on here. Govt should hire you to placate big companies exiting the UK and also use you to get back the recent recorded 10% decline in FDI. Whilst you're at it, can you sort out the WTO members who are objecting to the UK rocking up and using its structure? Thank you.

You can of course provide the names of the big companies that HAVE left, as opposed to those threatening to leave, and have done since before the 2016 referendum?

Just a couple of examples would do

Do you have a life outside this forum? if you did, you'd know companies that have geared up to exit left and who have invested elsewhere. Small quote from an E&Y report: '27 universal banks, investment banks and brokerages have said they are considering moving'; I read somewhere Goldmans have a new EU home for their hedge fund HQ already; old broking pal of mine has an office mothballed in Frankfurt for when they move over there next year; buddy who flies for easyjet - apparently they have @ 150 jets registered in Austria now - thats a whopping big chunk of change out of the support services supply chain who care for commercial aviation in the UK, including our own CAA. Plus another buddy's pharmaceutical company that called time over here that was all in the press. And, I suppose NHS EU workers plc - we have lost a lot of good people who are going back. Im sure it will be great for overtime come next March but will be interesting to see if the govt will be able to pay us! Country is under an enormous economic strain right now.

I wasn’t aware of anything you suggest other than EasyJet which I happen to mention many pages ago however it was conveniently ignored, all planes and pilots are now being registered overseas in he E.U. so the airline can keep flying. BA aren’t doing anything similar so it remains to see what happens.

Agreed some major businesses I know are making plans for life outside the UK once we leave and to include a very large cruise line, a couple of oil companies and a very large publishing house to start with.

Brexiteers are living in a little univserve of their own totally ignoring what’s happening in the real world......

No doubt some little angry Brexiteer will be along shortly suggesting fake news and getting all frothy at the mount...ah well, well so be it.

Edited by HoHoHo on Saturday 27th October 22:15

[HoHoHo]

Without an argument can a leave voter please explain to me why leaving with ‘no deal’ is a ‘good deal’ and will be better outcome than a partial agreement such as the customs union but no more than that for example?

Genuine question

[HoHoHo]

LimaDelta said:

HoHoHo said:

Without an argument can a leave voter please explain to me why leaving with ‘no deal’ is a ‘good deal’ and will be better outcome than a partial agreement such as the customs union but no more than that for example?

Genuine question

Define 'better'. Better for who, why and in what way?

I’m constantly being told by leavers and being quoted by May that a ‘no deal is better than a poor deal’ or where we are currently so to answer your question I’m guessing better for ‘Joe Public’. In what way, I don’t know because it’s not me saying that it’s a better solution than our current arrangement.

There are many on this thread who believe in a no deal, so I’m simply asking them why?

[HoHoHo]

Troubleatmill said:

HoHoHo said:

Without an argument can a leave voter please explain to me why leaving with ‘no deal’ is a ‘good deal’ and will be better outcome than a partial agreement such as the customs union but no more than that for example?

Genuine question

Both the Remain and Leave campaigns agreed that “A vote to leave the EU, means leaving the single market and customs union”.

To respect the result of the referendum we must leave the single market and customs union.

A partial fudge that prevents us from negotiating our own trade deals, and tying us to the EU rules will do long term damage.

There are several hundred countries that are not in the EU and they seem to be doing just fine.

I’m sure there are, but how will we benefit from a no deal and using WTO for example?

Why is the WTO better than the current trade agreements we have? I’m guessing in addition to any E.U. trade deals we also have a trade deal with other countries already, for example do we currently have a trade agreement with China or the US or Canada or Saudi Arabia?

I’m not trolling, I’m asking to be educated

[HoHoHo]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

HoHoHo said:

Without an argument can a leave voter please explain to me why leaving with ‘no deal’ is a ‘good deal’ and will be better outcome than a partial agreement such as the customs union but no more than that for example?

Genuine question

Two reasons

Firstly because I don't trust our politicians to negotiate a deal that sufficiently seperates us from the political ambitions of Europe to satisfy why I want to leave now. Like Cameron's reforms and like Harold Wilson's CAP reforms, I suspect it will end up as an exercise in window dressing. The one thing we seem to have achieved in 2 years is to get a foreign company to make us some blue passport covers. This tells me that they're not actually trying to get a workable trade deal anyway, they're merely trying to make it look like they're just trying to present that image.


Secondly, leaving with no deal is likley to allow us a greater deal of freedom to have the trade deals and trade policy we want, and democratically vote for, than any deal is likely to allow. Any deal will of course see us giving preferential treatment to goods from the EU, or to put it another way discriminating against goods from outside the EU.

For example I like German cars but I'd rather have the choice of a Japanese or American car on the same terms, rather than the market being tilted in favour of German cars by tariffs, quotas or regulations, as the EU would have every incentive to do in this scenario.

Thank you

That has said more in a few words than most over 50 or more pages.

So on the assumption you’re right what happens come 1st April when we’ve got no current deals with our local trading partners as at that date - how do we continue trading until we have deals.......does everything stop for a few months/years or what?

Do German cars or Miele ovens et al suddenly become more expensive until we have a deal?

Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 28th October 10:56