Discussion
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
R.Sole said:
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
BrabusMog said:
R.Sole said:
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
The underlying point made by the OP as regards P Ex was valid given that Identified that without vouchering what look and feel like relatively low cost meals are in fact relatively expensive.
BrabusMog said:
Original post stated no starters and a soft drink each, so I took that to either be a piss take or disingenuous. There's a difference between a quick casual bite and having coffees and desserts after the main...
I’ve seen more gracious apologies. :roll eyes: I never said “a quick casual bite” so you made up that bit. Having desert and coffee is hardly going crazy. https://inews.co.uk/news/business/pizza-express-lo...
Brooking10 said:
BrabusMog said:
R.Sole said:
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
The underlying point made by the OP as regards P Ex was valid given that Identified that without vouchering what look and feel like relatively low cost meals are in fact relatively expensive.
Zigster said:
BrabusMog said:
Original post stated no starters and a soft drink each, so I took that to either be a piss take or disingenuous. There's a difference between a quick casual bite and having coffees and desserts after the main...
I’ve seen more gracious apologies. :roll eyes: I never said “a quick casual bite” so you made up that bit. Having desert and coffee is hardly going crazy. https://inews.co.uk/news/business/pizza-express-lo...
You may think I'm being pernickety and that's fair enough and I don't want to get drawn into an argument on the Internet, but your post on this was disingenuous in my eyes.
BrabusMog said:
R.Sole said:
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
I had only eaten at Jamie's Italian once, (not by choice) for an office Christmas Lunch, and I remember it being very underwhelming, but at least I wasn't paying for it
But looking at their UK menu, they had a burger as a main (add £4.95 for fries). So the food wasn't the reason his restaurants failed....... Really?!?!?!
But looking at their UK menu, they had a burger as a main (add £4.95 for fries). So the food wasn't the reason his restaurants failed....... Really?!?!?!
BrabusMog said:
Apologise for what? You didn't say casual bite but you did say mains and soft drinks, handily omitting desserts and coffees. For what it's worth, I think Pizza Express isn't great value for money, but I don't give half the story to make my point.
You may think I'm being pernickety and that's fair enough and I don't want to get drawn into an argument on the Internet, but your post on this was disingenuous in my eyes.
But here's what I actually said. If you don't want to get into an argument on the internet, it's probably best not to misquote them and then call them disingenuous ...You may think I'm being pernickety and that's fair enough and I don't want to get drawn into an argument on the Internet, but your post on this was disingenuous in my eyes.
Zigster said:
We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
Zigster said:
BrabusMog said:
Apologise for what? You didn't say casual bite but you did say mains and soft drinks, handily omitting desserts and coffees. For what it's worth, I think Pizza Express isn't great value for money, but I don't give half the story to make my point.
You may think I'm being pernickety and that's fair enough and I don't want to get drawn into an argument on the Internet, but your post on this was disingenuous in my eyes.
But here's what I actually said. If you don't want to get into an argument on the internet, it's probably best not to misquote them and then call them disingenuous ...You may think I'm being pernickety and that's fair enough and I don't want to get drawn into an argument on the Internet, but your post on this was disingenuous in my eyes.
Zigster said:
We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
Brooking10 said:
Andy Zarse said:
On the contrary, this is classical market economics in action. Casual dining (and I am assuming you're including Jamie's in this description?) has never been more popular. More and more people eating out more often. A generation ago eating out was a treat. Now it's mainstream. The market recognised this and a plethora of chains popped up to fill demand. And they literally popped up everywhere. Some of them were even pretty good, to start with at least. But what the managements didn't factor in were changes in people's tastes. Italian food has become mundane. There's more exiting and new cuisines to try. In essence i contend that the market for italian food stayed static at best; the options to eat it expanded hugely. Consequently there's only so much trade to go around and this is why restaurant chains are failing.
I still have to queue to get a lunch table at my local Wagamama or even Wahaca but you can stroll straight into the Pizza Express/Zizzi/Prezzo/Ask/you name your identikit pseudo-Italian eatery and you tell them which table you'd like to sit at. The problems in the casual dining market, such as they are, are the out-dated business models they still rely upon.The fact of the matter is there are way too many Italian restaurants compared to the number punters, combined with high overheads, a mediocre product at an uncompetitive price. Result; misery.
Little of this is the customers' fault, nor is it the fault of the government, Brexit or any other blame deflection mechanism. Creative destruction in action.
I agree that the business models are at the heart of the problem I still have to queue to get a lunch table at my local Wagamama or even Wahaca but you can stroll straight into the Pizza Express/Zizzi/Prezzo/Ask/you name your identikit pseudo-Italian eatery and you tell them which table you'd like to sit at. The problems in the casual dining market, such as they are, are the out-dated business models they still rely upon.The fact of the matter is there are way too many Italian restaurants compared to the number punters, combined with high overheads, a mediocre product at an uncompetitive price. Result; misery.
Little of this is the customers' fault, nor is it the fault of the government, Brexit or any other blame deflection mechanism. Creative destruction in action.
Edited by Andy Zarse on Monday 19th August 13:26
The market as a whole though is definitely a double headed beast.
Overall spend plus input costs and therefore profits are very much challenged irrespective of cuisine.
Totally agree that the more defined the offering the better the customer responds and yes the anglicised Italian sub sector is one we fell out of love with
There’s significant distress in the sector as a whole and a lot of caution in terms of expansion.
Wahahca is great but it’s very London centric with a few high end metropolitan sites outwith the capital. Where it goes next strategically is a big decision.
Wags is a brilliant business (and IMO great food) but under its new ownership )who bought it largely to distract from the underlying issues in their core business) it has several challenges ahead.
I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Andy Zarse said:
Pretty much agree on all that, and thanks for your insight on a sector you obviously understand
I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Have one back I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Agree with you re Wahaca, it’s great food but not sure where it scales to from here as you say.
Pho is another similar business albeit different cuisine that knows it has a ceiling in terms of just how far it can go and so sticks to London and very carefully selected metropolitan sites.
Hopefully the scaling back of the mega brands allows smaller and more local operators to flourish more. Thing is it’s no longer all that cheap to make cheap food and punters are more fickle than ever !
Cold said:
egor110 said:
Cold said:
Italian food in the UK. Pasta with a white wine and garlic sauce (often too much garlic). Only the name above the door changes.
You need to search out some little family owned places .Brooking10 said:
Andy Zarse said:
Pretty much agree on all that, and thanks for your insight on a sector you obviously understand
I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Have one back I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Agree with you re Wahaca, it’s great food but not sure where it scales to from here as you say.
Pho is another similar business albeit different cuisine that knows it has a ceiling in terms of just how far it can go and so sticks to London and very carefully selected metropolitan sites.
Hopefully the scaling back of the mega brands allows smaller and more local operators to flourish more. Thing is it’s no longer all that cheap to make cheap food and punters are more fickle than ever !
Round the corner from our office is Lazak Maman, the Mauritian street food restaurant of Masterchef winner Shelina Permalloo. It's terrific, a simple little mom'n'pop restaurant, constantly busy and seemingly doing very nicely. Shelina seems to be really enjoying it. I sometimes wonder if she's happier than Thomasina Myers, another MC winner, who is behind the Wahaca concept.
egor110 said:
Cold said:
egor110 said:
Cold said:
Italian food in the UK. Pasta with a white wine and garlic sauce (often too much garlic). Only the name above the door changes.
You need to search out some little family owned places .R.Sole said:
oyster said:
jakesmith said:
Zigster said:
Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.
The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!? The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.
1 x kids @ £8.00
1x bottle wine @ £25.0
1x coke @ £2.85
3 x coffee @ £2.75 = £8.25
2 x desert @ £6 = £12
Total. = £99.60.
Not very difficult to rack up £100.
Chain restaurant pricing has effectively become a rebate model now.
The prices on the menu can only really be seen as negotiable rack rates now.
The Italian branded sector in the UK has become a bit pretentious / faux upmarket perhaps.
I used to work in the Finance team at Bella Pasta (and cafe rouge) about 20 years ago.
BP had no pretence of being upmarket and the service was fast as : sauces were pre made and pasta was prepped to 90% cooked so just needed a flash steam.
Was actually reasonably successful back then : predictable and quick service and food at a decent but not pretentious standard and atmosphere.
Maybe the issue with places like carluccios now is that the food is not much better than BP .. but pretends to be and is priced as if something slightly special. For sure the pasta sauces will be microwave in the bag
I used to work in the Finance team at Bella Pasta (and cafe rouge) about 20 years ago.
BP had no pretence of being upmarket and the service was fast as : sauces were pre made and pasta was prepped to 90% cooked so just needed a flash steam.
Was actually reasonably successful back then : predictable and quick service and food at a decent but not pretentious standard and atmosphere.
Maybe the issue with places like carluccios now is that the food is not much better than BP .. but pretends to be and is priced as if something slightly special. For sure the pasta sauces will be microwave in the bag
Edited by alfaman on Monday 19th August 17:13
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