Discussion
Burwood said:
Brooking, didn’t a VC/equity firm buy Wagamama for a PE of 50+. Were you in the hospitality division of your firm or more generalist.
Generalist but have done lots of leisure.Wags is one of the success stories of PE backed casual dining, has been through three houses since it started and the last owner turned a +3x on sale to The Restaurant Group.
I love wags
Brooking10 said:
vikingaero said:
There's a difference to being an amiable mockney t
t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.
There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
How many millions of your own have you ever put into a business ?t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
That’s like a normal person putting in a few grand to prop up their business.
Perspective required
pincher said:
Brooking10 said:
vikingaero said:
There's a difference to being an amiable mockney tt on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.
There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
How many millions of your own have you ever put into a business ?t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
That’s like a normal person putting in a few grand to prop up their business.
Perspective required
Then of course there is also the point that net worth is not a measure of liquidity.
Jamie's Italian was your typical chain restaurant.
Brakes lorry idling round the back and overused microwaves in the kitchens.
Employ some hipsters, put condiments in old Heinz beans tin cans with the labels removed and serve on a slate that looked like it came off the roof.
The food won't kill you, but it's overpriced and lacking real quality.
Blame Brexit when it goes tits up.
Done.
Brakes lorry idling round the back and overused microwaves in the kitchens.
Employ some hipsters, put condiments in old Heinz beans tin cans with the labels removed and serve on a slate that looked like it came off the roof.
The food won't kill you, but it's overpriced and lacking real quality.
Blame Brexit when it goes tits up.
Done.
Brooking10 said:
Hopefully the scaling back of the mega brands allows smaller and more local operators to flourish more. Thing is it’s no longer all that cheap to make cheap food and punters are more fickle than ever !
Difficult to see smaller operators taking over leases at such high costs, especially when the landlords are funds that are more concerned about book value than occupancy. CABC said:
the Whitbread era has a lot to answer for. CR was a sweet bistro chain back in the early nineties.
timely post, as this neatly sums up what i see as JOs problem. he (or his BiL) launched the chain at whitbread C.Rouge level whereas the world had already moved on to more inviting propositions. Wahaca is more recent but sums up the change well.
Cafe rouge was a very interesting story (and fun team to work with)timely post, as this neatly sums up what i see as JOs problem. he (or his BiL) launched the chain at whitbread C.Rouge level whereas the world had already moved on to more inviting propositions. Wahaca is more recent but sums up the change well.
basically whitbread way over paid for a business that was just breaking even (but some dubious accounting treatment flattered the financial statements)
I was one of a team sent in to get the business back on track / under control.
Basic issue was that the food was all freshly prepared (actually very good in the original restaurants) ... which drives very high Labour costs - and patchy service when you get large groups of customers.!the competition is all microwave / brake brothers/ boil in bag .
And customers will only want tonpay ‘low to mid market’ prices .. as pub ‘fast food’ is priced at that level.
Out of all the Pelican brands (cafe rouge , dome bar, dragon inns, and The Oriel (Sloan square)...
The original CR sites did quite well - as did some dome, oriel , and dragon inns (was during the Thai food ‘take off’ ) (dragon was a huge success though small scale )
a lot of provincial CR sites were dogs
It's a classic case of expectation shortfall for unsophisticated customers.
You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
can't remember said:
It's a classic case of expectation shortfall for unsophisticated customers.
You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
JO isn’t a Michelin starred chef.You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
zygalski said:
To be fair though he was a sous chef at the River Cafe in 1997, aged 21, which was the year the restaurant won its first star.
Indeed but the idea that people thought they would be getting Michelin started food on the cheap is a stretch. JORG never made that association in the marketing for any of its concepts.
Andy Zarse has it spot on.
As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - fk no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out.
As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - f
k no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out. Castrol for a knave said:
Andy Zarse has it spot on.
As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - fk no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out.
There’s plenty of truth in that genetically across the sector but not all of applies to JORG.As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - f
k no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out. Specifically there was no PE money and the lending was mainstream.
Brooking10 said:
You know he makes/made several times more from media and licensing than he ever did, or indeed would have done, from the restaurants ?
The reason why he exited restaurants was so as not to further contaminate the real money making part of brand Jamie.
He’s an impressive guy who has achieved more than 99% of the rest of us could imagine - and not just financially - from relatively humble beginnings.
As you can tell I find the tall poppying of JO really misplaced.
I quite like JO, and at the start Jamie’s worked well, but quality went down as prices went up. The reason why he exited restaurants was so as not to further contaminate the real money making part of brand Jamie.
He’s an impressive guy who has achieved more than 99% of the rest of us could imagine - and not just financially - from relatively humble beginnings.
As you can tell I find the tall poppying of JO really misplaced.
In my local town the Jamie’s was replaced by an Ivy Brasserie which is trading really well, so it certainly isn’t disposable income or Brexit which did for Jamie’s, but an offer that customers didn’t want.
As for closing down his restaurants because it contaminated his brand, it probably did, but I would think that losing £39m a year might have also contributed.
I seem alone in my view of Jamie’s, when they started there were queues round the block and the food for me was excellent. There was a ragu tagliatelle with I think rabbit and breadcrumbs that was bloody delicious and a burger in brioche bun and polenta chips that were massive and really crunchy. All served in a bright buzzy environment that is similar to what Wahaca do now with great sucess.
I later worked with them directly and saw a level of commitment and passion from the staff that surprised me.
I ate probably 8-10 times total at their branch in Kingston, Guildford, Reading and a flagship one in Islington. Thought the standard was consistent apart from Reading where service was slow.
I would be surprised if they were using microwaves honestly, I’ve read it on here but is it a fact or a guess? I can’t picture it and their kitchens were pretty open but I don’t actually know.
I didn’t go for the last 4 years but I’m sad it’s gone I only have good memories of eating there and we can’t really afford to go to The Ivy that has replaced some of them, actually I’ve been 3 times and it is clearly in a different league but the prices are too.
Jamie seems to me like a genuine guy but as some have pointed out on the thread it’s the financial treatment of the business and the fees that reveal the substance of the man.
I later worked with them directly and saw a level of commitment and passion from the staff that surprised me.
I ate probably 8-10 times total at their branch in Kingston, Guildford, Reading and a flagship one in Islington. Thought the standard was consistent apart from Reading where service was slow.
I would be surprised if they were using microwaves honestly, I’ve read it on here but is it a fact or a guess? I can’t picture it and their kitchens were pretty open but I don’t actually know.
I didn’t go for the last 4 years but I’m sad it’s gone I only have good memories of eating there and we can’t really afford to go to The Ivy that has replaced some of them, actually I’ve been 3 times and it is clearly in a different league but the prices are too.
Jamie seems to me like a genuine guy but as some have pointed out on the thread it’s the financial treatment of the business and the fees that reveal the substance of the man.
Brooking10 said:
So said:
Which is why it's undesirable that there are still restaurants bearing his name that are poor.
Believe me it isn't hurting the coffers.Jamie Oliver makes his money from Jamie Oliver, the cheeky young entrepreneur chef who makes food accessible.
If he becomes Jamie Oliver the middle aged failed restauranteur it’s not necessarily a look that people will flock to.
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