Discussion
Andy Zarse said:
Pretty much agree on all that, and thanks for your insight on a sector you obviously understand 
I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Have one back I too worry what's next for Wahacha. I like the food and the concept but I too wonder what it is for? It's too weird to be truly mainstream, but too exotic to be stand alone. I suspect it's almost gone as far as it's going to go. And if it isn't making a decent return for investors then what's the point of continuing to run a business which does little but employ people?
Agree with you re Wahaca, it’s great food but not sure where it scales to from here as you say.
Pho is another similar business albeit different cuisine that knows it has a ceiling in terms of just how far it can go and so sticks to London and very carefully selected metropolitan sites.
Hopefully the scaling back of the mega brands allows smaller and more local operators to flourish more. Thing is it’s no longer all that cheap to make cheap food and punters are more fickle than ever !
untakenname said:
I find the whole concept naming an eating establishment after your first name to be very council.
Been in Jamie's once for a work meal years back and didn't think much of it, looks like the rest of the paying public voted with their feet as well.
The only chain Italian I'll eat in is Vapiano as it's decent vfm and you can see the food being cooked for you as you wait.
You’d hate Chez Bruce then .........Been in Jamie's once for a work meal years back and didn't think much of it, looks like the rest of the paying public voted with their feet as well.
The only chain Italian I'll eat in is Vapiano as it's decent vfm and you can see the food being cooked for you as you wait.
vikingaero said:
There's a difference to being an amiable mockney t
t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.
There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
How many millions of your own have you ever put into a business ?t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
Burwood said:
Good post. Oliver was told his product was not good enough for the money. He chose to ignore the reviews and his own staff. He’s where he belongs now, at Shell gas stations. But never fear, he has a new vegetable cook book out and a new ‘kids health task force’.
You know he makes/made several times more from media and licensing than he ever did, or indeed would have done, from the restaurants ?The reason why he exited restaurants was so as not to further contaminate the real money making part of brand Jamie.
He’s an impressive guy who has achieved more than 99% of the rest of us could imagine - and not just financially - from relatively humble beginnings.
As you can tell I find the tall poppying of JO really misplaced.
Burwood said:
Brooking, didn’t a VC/equity firm buy Wagamama for a PE of 50+. Were you in the hospitality division of your firm or more generalist.
Generalist but have done lots of leisure.Wags is one of the success stories of PE backed casual dining, has been through three houses since it started and the last owner turned a +3x on sale to The Restaurant Group.
I love wags
pincher said:
Brooking10 said:
vikingaero said:
There's a difference to being an amiable mockney tt on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.
There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
How many millions of your own have you ever put into a business ?t on TV to translating that into running a restaurant successfully. JO's era is over and people are fed up with him and his constant branding...and whining everywhere.There is no difference between a JO restaurant and Prezzo, ASK, and 1001 chain restaurants. The "£4 mil of his own cash" that he tried to shore up the company with pales into insignificance with the huge management and licensing fees being sucked out of the business for years.
That’s like a normal person putting in a few grand to prop up their business.
Perspective required
Then of course there is also the point that net worth is not a measure of liquidity.
Jamie's Italian was your typical chain restaurant.
Brakes lorry idling round the back and overused microwaves in the kitchens.
Employ some hipsters, put condiments in old Heinz beans tin cans with the labels removed and serve on a slate that looked like it came off the roof.
The food won't kill you, but it's overpriced and lacking real quality.
Blame Brexit when it goes tits up.
Done.
Brakes lorry idling round the back and overused microwaves in the kitchens.
Employ some hipsters, put condiments in old Heinz beans tin cans with the labels removed and serve on a slate that looked like it came off the roof.
The food won't kill you, but it's overpriced and lacking real quality.
Blame Brexit when it goes tits up.
Done.
can't remember said:
It's a classic case of expectation shortfall for unsophisticated customers.
You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
JO isn’t a Michelin starred chef.You come to Can't Remember's Italian Restaurant and eat Jamie's food at Jamie's prices and you think 'not bad I might come back next week.' If you go to Jamie's however you are disappointed that a Michelin starred chef could serve such MOR food at such a price. Not only that but Jamie himself didn't bring you your meal.
Sometimes that big brand name can work against you.
zygalski said:
To be fair though he was a sous chef at the River Cafe in 1997, aged 21, which was the year the restaurant won its first star.
Indeed but the idea that people thought they would be getting Michelin started food on the cheap is a stretch. JORG never made that association in the marketing for any of its concepts.
Castrol for a knave said:
Andy Zarse has it spot on.
As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - fk no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out.
There’s plenty of truth in that genetically across the sector but not all of applies to JORG.As I have said in a related thread, the problems Jamie's faced are common throughout the casual dining sector
1) weak brand strength - I suspect the Jamie name didn't carry into the market as far as they expected
2) Poor differentiation of offer - to the public, he's just one of a range of mid market pizza offerings (whether he sells pizza is immaterial - it's perception).
3) Private equity / VC or expensive money backed dash for growth - means the experts are not driving the model, the money men are
4) as above, and taking poorly located units, at high rents, so you can claim you opened X no of units (mostly in over crowded secondary local markets).
5) On the rent side - those rents on older units are now starting to hurt - rental growth has caught up with them, RPI rent review clauses are starting to compound = fixed costs are rising
6) and those older units are in dire need of a refurb, but you spunked the FF&E reserve on an expensive re-fi or your previous owners took the cash when they flipped you to a League 2 PE outfit
7) Throw in a crowded market place (see 1 and 2), some far more imaginative and in vogue offers, your crappy pizza restaurant is no longer zeitgeist like ti was in 2007 and the circuit just moved to the other side of town, where all the cool kids hang out.
Would I put my money in casual high street dining - f
k no - I'd rather buy a marina or a decent caravan park, and get 10% day in day out. Specifically there was no PE money and the lending was mainstream.
T-195 said:
Brooking10 said:
T-195 said:
Humble beginnings you say.
I wish my parents had owned that pub.
I said relatively I wish my parents had owned that pub.
The envy is strong when it comes to JO it seems.
Cretin. I was pointing out you were wrong about supposedly humble beginnings
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th August 17:23
You don’t understand the word “relatively” or its relevance in prefacing humble as regards his creating a £100m plus brand from scratch, and I’m the cretin ?
OK chief .
skwdenyer said:
Clearly the above is the recent history. If we look back to, say, 2012, JIL made a ton of profit and paid just under £1m in royalties to Jamie Oliver Limited and made sales of £800k to a related company.
Of course JO took money out of his profitable business. He also appears to have put in £7m or equity, then another £3m of equity, then £18m in loans, etc.
Maybe he broke even over 16 years. Most likely not.
Good to see some common sense and appreciation of both the industry and the business.Of course JO took money out of his profitable business. He also appears to have put in £7m or equity, then another £3m of equity, then £18m in loans, etc.
Maybe he broke even over 16 years. Most likely not.
Your appreciation of the situation is accurate
Johnnytheboy said:
Nickgnome said:
I’ve never really understood why chain restaurants have such an attraction. There are a plethora of small restaurants, cafes and independent gastropubs where great meals can be enjoyed.
I generally avoid establishments with massive menus and much prefer limited menus done well.
Good God I thought I disagreed with you on everything but that's bang on. I generally avoid establishments with massive menus and much prefer limited menus done well.
Being part of a chain or a big menu actively repel me from going somewhere.
pavarotti1980 said:
zygalski said:
Christ it's a bit rich from MPW.
He's had more closures than the A259.
I think his point is that he is trying to blame the B word. He's had more closures than the A259.
pavarotti1980 said:
Roman Rhodes said:
Although the point that should put MPW back in his ghastly franchised restaurants at Holiday Inn is that he only said Brexit was a factor. He didn't "try to blame" Brexit at all.
its still bks. He is lacking in self-awareness if he thinks it does. Overpriced bang average bait similar to Wetherspoons in microwave(bility) in buildings who charge sky high rents.Did JO sell as much booze as Wetherspoons?
Does the exchange rate does affect the price of things?
Has the Brexit vote given people with marginal discretionary spend the jitters?
Agree the rents are high (as did JO). Don’t know what you mean by him lacking self-awareness.
So said:
Vaud said:
I like open kitchens- you can at least see it. IIRC there is no requirement to wear gloves when handling food - raw or cooked (unless they have broken skin). Even with gloves, cross contamination can happen. Cooked food carries equal risks if they touch it after it is cooked...
Sure but said spotty youth would probably not have worn gloves when taking a dump.All the more senior staff there used to wear gloves.
pavarotti1980 said:
Roman Rhodes said:
Did JO use microwaves?
One poster previously did say that they brought in pre-packed sauces and other ingredients that only require a quick heat upRoman Rhodes said:
Did JO sell as much booze as Wetherspoons?
Erm no. Why would theyRoman Rhodes said:
Does the exchange rate does affect the price of things?
Yes and this would apply equally to all other restaurants as well. Including the ones which arent strugglingRoman Rhodes said:
Has the Brexit vote given people with marginal discretionary spend the jitters?
Clearly not when you see other brands full to the brimRoman Rhodes said:
Agree the rents are high (as did JO). Don’t know what you mean by him lacking self-awareness.
His lack of self-awareness is the fact he seems to be blaming everything apoart from his own business sense.ks posted on this thread - I wouldn't rely on it.Mid-market dining is on it's arse - not full to the brim (in this country, on this planet). Which ones aren't struggling?
Wetherspoons booze profits can subsidise food profits.
He did blame himself if you'd watched the TV program.
You may not like him (for whatever reasons) but your analysis doesn't bear scrutiny.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 August 18:44
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