Vegan extremists

[LDN]

Rovinghawk said:

LDN said:

Which amino acids in particular? Please state.

As I said earlier, dimly remembered food science classes suggested (uncertain as to exact numbers so please allow some latitude) of the 22 amino acids, 12 are present in vegan diets & 8 can be synthesised from those 12. 2 amino acids are not present in vegan diets and are needed for healthy living.

Please confirm where vegans get them.

TTwiggy has mentioned B12 & it would be nice if your answer could include that.

This is easy and I can sense you know what's coming...

1: Vegans get all of the amino acids.
2: B12 is gained from plant milk, or fortified food, such as cereals.

Instead of willy waving; I'm glad you're asking these questions; the debate here is healthy and it's easy for any of us to descend into the usual PH cesspit of abuse. Me included.

Facts are; vegan numbers are growing. Meat eaters are considering less meat in their diet. The consciousness is shifting. Why that's a bad thing, I don't know. I would guess that with all of the facts laid out in front of us; we'd all agree on nigh on everything with only a few sticking points.

I don't look to celebrity for anything; I dislike celeb' culture. But my points stand; simply that; with elite athletes, quite obviously performing the best they ever have, on Vegan diets; the idea of the weak hippy vegan; is now a thing of the past; for most people anyway!

[bobbo89]

LDN said:

You're sisters do indeed sound like fair weather trendsters. I would agree.

Can i just get something clear. Are you coming from a point of view that being vegan is the only way, its slowly taking over and eventually we'll all become vegan?

[LDN]

Rollin said:

LDN said:

Not all films or data on animal agriculture - and the health issues attributed to meat consumption are funded by vegans. Much of the data and science that is pro-meat; however, IS funded by meat and dairy producers. Interesting isn't it?

So what? I'm not the one taking the moral high ground based on biased media on either side. I see you're happy to see it pass and it says a lot. Must be the unnatural pig food you guzzle down. See? Hyperbole doesn't work.

We could discuss the effects on the environment of being vegan but I'm sure that is significantly offset, on an individual level, by things such as energy supplier/usage, car type etc in some cases. Maybe even yours?

I own a few cars; and a quite a few properties. There's one argument that; if cars are taxed due to environmental impact; then meat should be too. Happy to go down this rabbit hole with you.

[Rovinghawk]

LDN said:

1: Vegans get all of the amino acids.

This answer conflicts with information (admittedly a long time ago) taught in a food science module

LDN said:

2: B12 is gained from plant milk, or fortified food, such as cereals.

And the B12 in the cereals comes from........?

LDN said:

I'm glad you're asking these questions; the debate here is healthy and it's easy for any of us to descend into the usual PH cesspit of abuse. Me included.

I enjoy a debate & opposing views are healthier than echo chambers.

LDN said:

Facts are; vegan numbers are growing.

Proof, please?

LDN said:

Meat eaters are considering less meat in their diet.

Proof please? Also proof that it's not for cost reasons?

LDN said:

Why that's a bad thing, I don't know. I would guess that with all of the facts laid out in front of us; we'd all agree on nigh on everything with only a few sticking points.

I never said it's a bad thing- folks can be as veggie/vegan as they want provided they don't attempt to enforce it on others (a common occurrence).

[Camoradi]

I was thinking of turning vegan for environmental reasons. I'm worried about climate change and rising sea levels, so thought the best thing would be to occupy the moral high ground

[LDN]

bobbo89 said:

LDN said:

You're sisters do indeed sound like fair weather trendsters. I would agree.

Can i just get something clear. Are you coming from a point of view that being vegan is the only way, its slowly taking over and eventually we'll all become vegan?

There's no easy answer to those questions; if only things were so simple.

1: Is vegan the only way? No. In cases of survival; then veganism is not the only way. If I were on a desert island with no food sources other than meat; then I would hunt. No problem.

2: Is veganism slowly taking over? Getting into language here but I would say that it is not slowly taking over at all. I would say that there is a shift in attitudes; toward meat consumption on the one hand and toward veganism and vegan health on the other. And it's growing.

3: Eventually we will all become vegan? If you mean 'we' as in you and I; quite obviously not! Not in our lifetime; veganism will become a lot more mainstream; meat will never go away; but animal agriculture as we know it, will. Meat will be grown in labs; perfectly formed and free from disease or anti-biotics. That will be the meat that our species will consume in the future.

[bobbo89]

LDN said:

There's no easy answer to those questions; if only things were so simple.

1: Is vegan the only way? No. In cases of survival; then veganism is not the only way. If I were on a desert island with no food sources other than meat; then I would hunt. No problem.

2: Is veganism slowly taking over? Getting into language here but I would say that it is not slowly taking over at all. I would say that there is a shift in attitudes; toward meat consumption on the one hand and toward veganism and vegan health on the other. And it's growing.

3: Eventually we will all become vegan? If you mean 'we' as in you and I; quite obviously not! Not in our lifetime; veganism will become a lot more mainstream; meat will never go away; but animal agriculture as we know it, will. Meat will be grown in labs; perfectly formed and free from disease or anti-biotics. That will be the meat that our species will consume in the future.

I think you're probably thinking way way further ahead than I am and we're having two very different debates.

[LDN]

Rovinghawk said:

LDN said:

1: Vegans get all of the amino acids.

This answer conflicts with information (admittedly a long time ago) taught in a food science module

LDN said:

2: B12 is gained from plant milk, or fortified food, such as cereals.

And the B12 in the cereals comes from........?

LDN said:

I'm glad you're asking these questions; the debate here is healthy and it's easy for any of us to descend into the usual PH cesspit of abuse. Me included.

I enjoy a debate & opposing views are healthier than echo chambers.

LDN said:

Facts are; vegan numbers are growing.

Proof, please?

LDN said:

Meat eaters are considering less meat in their diet.

Proof please? Also proof that it's not for cost reasons?

LDN said:

Why that's a bad thing, I don't know. I would guess that with all of the facts laid out in front of us; we'd all agree on nigh on everything with only a few sticking points.

I never said it's a bad thing- folks can be as veggie/vegan as they want provided they don't attempt to enforce it on others (a common occurrence).

Change doesn't occur without the sharing of ideas and the pursuit of moral evolution. If you had been a slave owner in old times; would you have said to protesters; "it's fine you hold those beliefs, but just don't push them onto me"... it seems you might have been. Rightly or wrongly; people who believe in something; tend to want to share it. But when there is science and actual moral / ethical issues surrounding an issue; it will gain traction.

The essential amino acids you speak of are not contained in any one vegan food source but over a variety. Nuts, soya, seeds, lentils, beans... all provide the amino acids considered essential.

All B12, be it fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms. B12 is made from bacteria cultures.

Vegan numbers growing... 2016 Ipsos poll showed numbers had trebled in a decade but they say that in the two years since; the growth has been exponential.

Meat eaters reducing intake; RSPCA Assured program said they'd seen 40% consumer trend in meat reduction. There is more on this also.

[LDN]

coyft said:

Nanook said:

coyft said:

It’s the arguments us meat eaters put forward as justification that is laughable.

I eat meat because that’s the culture I was brought up in. I’ve yet to here a coherent intelligent argument as to why I should continue to do so.

Because I like it.

Same reason I drive a car that does 23MPG, and own guitars made from rare/endangered wood.

If that's laughable, feel free to piss yourself laughing at me i suppose.

Ouch!!

[LDN]

bobbo89 said:

LDN said:

There's no easy answer to those questions; if only things were so simple.

1: Is vegan the only way? No. In cases of survival; then veganism is not the only way. If I were on a desert island with no food sources other than meat; then I would hunt. No problem.

2: Is veganism slowly taking over? Getting into language here but I would say that it is not slowly taking over at all. I would say that there is a shift in attitudes; toward meat consumption on the one hand and toward veganism and vegan health on the other. And it's growing.

3: Eventually we will all become vegan? If you mean 'we' as in you and I; quite obviously not! Not in our lifetime; veganism will become a lot more mainstream; meat will never go away; but animal agriculture as we know it, will. Meat will be grown in labs; perfectly formed and free from disease or anti-biotics. That will be the meat that our species will consume in the future.

I think you're probably thinking way way further ahead than I am and we're having two very different debates.

Fair enough

[Funk]

LDN said:

roadsmash said:

Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me.

Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.

I recall reading once that choosing to be vegetarian/vegan is a luxury of the modern age; without eating meat, humans would never have had the density of calorific intake required which allowed us to evolve. Look at how essential it is for bears to consume huge amounts of calories to be able to hibernate and how little energy pandas get from the bamboo they eat for example.

[LDN]

Funk said:

LDN said:

roadsmash said:

Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me.

Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.

I recall reading once that choosing to be vegetarian/vegan is a luxury of the modern age; without eating meat, humans would never have had the density of calorific intake required which allowed us to evolve. Look at how essential it is for bears to consume huge amounts of calories to be able to hibernate and how little energy pandas get from the bamboo they eat for example.

I suppose we don’t hibernate and I couldn’t eat bambo if you paid me!

Access to / understanding of food and diet was not as it is now. So there is truth in what you say. And so, a luxury of the modern age; an evolution in our understanding of diet and moral debate has indeed all moved things along.

[LDN]

Nanook said:

Absolutely, our brain's would not have evolved and developed in the way they have, without our ancestors eating meat and the protein that comes with it.

That's not a reason for still doing it, unless you believe we're going to further evolve

Protein is simply not an issue for vegans. But back then; indeed, it was a source and it played a part in our evolution.

[so called]

LDN said:

There isn't a movement?

I think you're done here.

I'm with you LDN, I always get a movement when I eat cabbage or sprouts.

[Burwood]

Nanook said:

Funk said:

I recall reading once that choosing to be vegetarian/vegan is a luxury of the modern age; without eating meat, humans would never have had the density of calorific intake required which allowed us to evolve. Look at how essential it is for bears to consume huge amounts of calories to be able to hibernate and how little energy pandas get from the bamboo they eat for example.

Absolutely, our brain's would not have evolved and developed in the way they have, without our ancestors eating meat and the protein that comes with it.

That's not a reason for still doing it, unless you believe we're going to further evolve

Are you suggesting Humans are no longer evolving?

Panda's have to consume 40-50kg of bamboo, correct but they have a metabolic rate lower than an adult human. Panda's are not vegan either

[StevieBee]

LDN said:

StevieBee said:

LDN said:

Taking in most of the points; vegans are not like religious nut jobs; because religious but jobs represent and fight for a make believe ‘fairy tale for adults’ if you will. Whereas veganism seeks to reduce suffering / animal exploitation and the betterment of the planet as a whole. Of course there are vegan extremists; there are millions more conservative vegans / vegetarians..

In the same way that not everyone that goes to church or mosque is a religious nut job or terrorist, not every vegan is a vegan nut job or terrorist.

But in the same way there are those that violently impose their religious beliefs on others (terrorists), the same applies to those that do the same to impose their thinking on those that think differently to their idea of the hierarchy of sentient beings.

What is the difference between someone blowing you up for not conforming to their region and someone blowing you up for eating a sausage?

Well, the difference is; nobody’s blown anyone up for eating a sausage.

Next?

Terrorism is not defined only by the physical enacting of violence but also the threat of violence.

[Dindoit]

Rollin said:

You suggest 'breastfeeding from another species is not natural'. It's just ridiculous language. Why not say that drinking milk is not natural and suggest why?

The entire evolutionary purpose of cow’s milk is to turn a 15kg calf into a 250kg cow in the nine months it takes to wean. Fully grown humans consuming dairy really is an absurd thing when you think about it properly.

NB I happily drink milk, eat cheese, yoghurt, chocolate etc.

[StevieBee]

gooner1 said:

StevieBee said:

It will depend entirely on the restaurant. If you're in a Harvester then fair dos. But somewhere more 'jacket and tie', the waiting staff will have sampled everything they offer in order to convey to the customer what's what.

. Vegan waiting staff would have sampled all the meat based dishes?

Fair point. But one would assume that a Vegan is unlikely to seek employment in an establishment that serves meat.

[LDN]

Dindoit said:

Rollin said:

You suggest 'breastfeeding from another species is not natural'. It's just ridiculous language. Why not say that drinking milk is not natural and suggest why?

The entire evolutionary purpose of cow’s milk is to turn a 15kg calf into a 250kg cow in the nine months it takes to wean. Fully grown humans consuming dairy really is an absurd thing when you think about it properly.

NB I happily drink milk, eat cheese, yoghurt, chocolate etc.

Bingo; there is also an addictive component to the milk; to keep the calf coming back for more...

There was a video prank sometime ago where they tested milk on the public only to later reveal that this new wonder milk came from rats. The reaction from each of the people was one of utter disgust; but it will have got a few of them thinking...

[Mr Tracy]

Vegan, was shortlisted 'Word of the Year'.

Single-use, won.