Vegan extremists

[dandarez]

toppstuff said:

Rollin said:

Tell me why eating imported quinoa and avocados is better for the environment than me catching a fish in my local river?

From your posts, it seems you don't understand what being a vegan involves.
Maybe do a bit of reading and either ditch the dairy or the hypocrisy.

I’m not a vegan. Nor a hypocrite.
I’m not a troll either. I also don’t troll people about positions they haven’t even taken. Unlike you.

I have not said anything about importing quinoa or avocados. And I’ve said nothing about eating fish you catch. In fact, I’ve actually said several times in this thread that I support people eating local food that is locally reared - including meat.

This is the opposite you accuse me of, so either you are thinking I am someone else, you are being deliberately obtuse, or you have jumped to conclusions and not actually read anything I’ve said.

Well done on your total failure. Maybe you need more iron in your diet. It’s good for cognition.

If he eats red meat I suspect he'd getting an ample quota. It's part of the reason it's good for you.

[Willy Nilly]

I'm just trying to think which plant protein crops that get used for the human food chain are grown in the UK.

We grow field beans which go for animal feed, but they're a break crop primarily grown for grass weed control. We also grow peas for seed, they're, I think, vining varieties, so not going for dried peas and am not sure if frozen peas are classed as a protein source. A few people will grow a few lupins, some people are trying, not very successfully, to grow soybeans. I should think that the number of pigeons that get shot in England alone to protect brassicas and peas would be well into 7 figures 8, possibly . Our guys will shoot over 1,500 on our little acreage.

So if the UK ceased farming animals, could we grow enough protein crops that are suitable for human consumption? As it is, like it or not, farm animals are generally reared on land that's either completely unsuitable or less than ideal for producing human food and largely fed by-products of the human food process, sort of recycling.

Edited by Willy Nilly on Saturday 19th January 16:38

[Willy Nilly]

Kenny Powers said:

It’s interesting to me that this recent huge push toward promoting the environmental virtues of veganism seems to be coinciding almost exactly with falling sales of grains and cereals as we are undergoing somewhat of a paradigm shift in nutritional science.

Can you please show me some figures for this? I can't imagine for a second with the human population growing every day that there will be any decrease in demand for grains and cereals. IF, this most of the grains and cereals are going to feed animals, it might show a down turn in the global economy because when people have more money, they generally eat more meat. If they have less money they will eat less meat so demand or cereals would be reduced and so would the price.

Here are some wheat prices

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/markets.aspx

[Davos123]

DoubleD said:

Would you accept a guide dog if you were blind?

No. I won't shame anyone for doing so, though

[smifffymoto]

I haven’t read all the posts as quite frankly,vegans can’t be reasoned with.
Bits I have picked up on,pigs are more intelligent than dogs.I have dogs and have kept pigs,pigs are thick as fk.
The meat industry is all about money.Well if we all turn vegan ,what will happen to the veg. Industry and what unsavoury methods will be employed to boost crops etc.
What health scares will there be when it’s discovered that some man made fertilisers cause cancer or such illnesses.

[Kenny Powers]

Willy Nilly said:

Can you please show me some figures for this?

I’m afraid I cannot.

I do know that the Gary Fetke case uncovered some leaked documents from the industry citing harmed profits to the cereal industry as cause for “active defence” against himself and others. I haven’t seen any numbers, but it’s certainly been shown that the grain & cereal industries are suffering at least some reduced sales as a result of prominent medical professionals driving the paradigm shift in nutrition science.

[grumbledoak]

smifffymoto said:

What health scares will there be when it’s discovered that some man made fertilisers cause cancer or such illnesses.

Glyphosate is sprayed onto crops in huge amounts just before harvest to desiccate them, to reduce wear on the machinery. It is detectable in food, especially breakfast cereals. The manufacturers have lobbied hard to have the accepted "safe levels" raised, and they have been, at least in the US.

The WHO lists it as a probable carcinogen.

[Davos123]

smifffymoto said:

I have dogs and have kept pigs,pigs are thick as fk.

Let's just ignore the empirical scientific evidence, then - your anecdote trumps it.

Did you treat your pigs the same as your dogs? Did they grow up in an environment where they were as mentally stimulated as one another? An animal that spends its life in a cage with little interaction with others will not be as intelligent as if it didn't. Humans are the same.

[Halb]

I think what we've seen is when you tale stress out of animals life, the personality can emerge. THat seems to be the case with many animals, which previously I wouldn't have expected to act 'like a dog' etc.

[Willy Nilly]

Kenny Powers said:

Willy Nilly said:

Can you please show me some figures for this?

I’m afraid I cannot.

I do know that the Gary Fetke case uncovered some leaked documents from the industry citing harmed profits to the cereal industry as cause for “active defence” against himself and others. I haven’t seen any numbers, but it’s certainly been shown that the grain & cereal industries are suffering at least some reduced sales as a result of prominent medical professionals driving the paradigm shift in nutrition science.

Grains are traded on the commodities markets. They are subject to supply and demand, currency fluctuation, politics, speculators, wars, weather and just about everything else you can imagine.

In the western world some people have decided they are gluten intolerant, some other people have decided they don't want to eat meat that may be fed on in some way my cereals. With a global population that continues to grow I find it hard to believe that the trend in demand for cereals is anything other than up.

Growing cereals is very low margin, so people push yields to grow more, which increases supply which suppresses price

[smifffymoto]

Davos123 said:

smifffymoto said:

I have dogs and have kept pigs,pigs are thick as fk.

Let's just ignore the empirical scientific evidence, then - your anecdote trumps it.

Did you treat your pigs the same as your dogs? Did they grow up in an environment where they were as mentally stimulated as one another? An animal that spends its life in a cage with little interaction with others will not be as intelligent as if it didn't. Humans are the same.

Of course they were not treated the same,I don’t eat my dogs.Pigs are,usually,kept outside with lots of other little piggies,there they can run around and play,generally have a nice time until they are at slaughter weight.This is the case where I live,it may be differant where you live.

[Ruskie]

smifffymoto said:

Davos123 said:

smifffymoto said:

I have dogs and have kept pigs,pigs are thick as fk.

Let's just ignore the empirical scientific evidence, then - your anecdote trumps it.

Did you treat your pigs the same as your dogs? Did they grow up in an environment where they were as mentally stimulated as one another? An animal that spends its life in a cage with little interaction with others will not be as intelligent as if it didn't. Humans are the same.

Of course they were not treated the same,I don’t eat my dogs.Pigs are,usually,kept outside with lots of other little piggies,there they can run around and play,generally have a nice time until they are at slaughter weight.This is the case where I live,it may be differant where you live.

You missed the point. If a pig is raised in the same way a dog is, showed love, affection and care, they too are very intelligent and loyal companions.

[Willy Nilly]

Ruskie said:

You missed the point. If a pig is raised in the same way a dog is, showed love, affection and care, they too are very intelligent and loyal companions.

Dogs have been bred for generations to do certain things, like round up sheep, retrieve things that have been shot, track deer, protect livestock and very often be your mate.

Pigs have been bred to produce meat and convert feed into lean meat as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I've worked with pigs and they're probably my favourite farm animal because they're fun to work with. But they've not been bred as companions and while they sometimes will come and say hello, they're only really interested in food.

[Halb]

Pigs bred for companionship are good that that. ANy creature can be bred for companionship within a fairly short time. SOmebody in Russia showed this with their foxes.

[otolith]

Halb said:

Pigs bred for companionship are good that that. ANy creature can be bred for companionship within a fairly short time. SOmebody in Russia showed this with their foxes.

Hmm, I think the experiment with foxes proved something about foxes. I don't think you can generalise from that to "any".

[Ruskie]

Willy Nilly said:

Ruskie said:

You missed the point. If a pig is raised in the same way a dog is, showed love, affection and care, they too are very intelligent and loyal companions.

Dogs have been bred for generations to do certain things, like round up sheep, retrieve things that have been shot, track deer, protect livestock and very often be your mate.

Pigs have been bred to produce meat and convert feed into lean meat as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I've worked with pigs and they're probably my favourite farm animal because they're fun to work with. But they've not been bred as companions and while they sometimes will come and say hello, they're only really interested in food.

Tune in for the latest episode of anecdotal evidence is the only evidence we need in 2019


https://escholarship.org/uc/item/8sx4s79c

‘Conclusion
In this paper we have identified a number of findings from studies of pig cognition, emotion, and behavior which suggest that pigs possess complex ethological traits similar, but not identical, to dogs and chimpanzees.’

[Halb]

otolith said:

Hmm, I think the experiment with foxes proved something about foxes. I don't think you can generalise from that to "any".

It showed hat an animal (one on this instance which was 100% wild) quickly adapts and within a few generations changes. Pigs are an intelligent creature and we already have decades of experiences of them as pets, where they have demonstrated personalities like dogs, rabbits too.

[otolith]

Halb said:

otolith said:

Hmm, I think the experiment with foxes proved something about foxes. I don't think you can generalise from that to "any".

It showed hat an animal (one on this instance which was 100% wild) quickly adapts and within a few generations changes. Pigs are an intelligent creature and we already have decades of experiences of them as pets, where they have demonstrated personalities like dogs, rabbits too.

It works on foxes, yes. Would it work on stoats? Tigers? Rattlesnakes? The experiment was selecting for neotenous characteristics, which happened to be conducive to domestication (interestingly, though they did not explicitly select for them, the animals retained some juvenile physical characteristics too). Do all creatures have neotenous characteristics which make them amenable to domestication? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not.

[Halb]

otolith said:

It works on foxes, yes. Would it work on stoats? Tigers? Rattlesnakes? The experiment was selecting for neotenous characteristics, which happened to be conducive to domestication (interestingly, though they did not explicitly select for them, the animals retained some juvenile physical characteristics too). Do all creatures have neotenous characteristics which make them amenable to domestication? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not.

I would tink since stoats have been pets, yes. Tigers, they are cats, and it seems to work on cats (we laos have those incidences of big cats who have been close to humans, like the famous lion). Reptiles are different. I think it is reasonable to think it would work on most if not all mammals.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet...
It seems the fox is a particularity hard one to do, but it worked. Many years ago, not sure when. I would have found it difficult to believe that rabbits would make good pets. But I've seen house rabbits, they have personalities like any other common mammal pet.
There is a story of a guy who has a croc as a pet, scientist theories that it has some form of mental disability to allow it to act as a mammal.
We

[DoubleD]

Davos123 said:

DoubleD said:

Would you accept a guide dog if you were blind?

No. I won't shame anyone for doing so, though

I think many would change their mind if they initially said no, especially anyone living alone.

They also train them like its all a big game, so they really enjoy it. Ive seen drug dogs in action and they were all having a fantastic time.

Of course my cat is the other way around, I look after him and he does what ever he likes!