Vegan extremists

[Davos123]

otolith said:

I would be genuinely interested in alternatives that meet my nutritional and taste requirements.

Tasty, low carbohydrate, high protein, moderate calorie meal ideas welcome. Say, under 800 kcals, > 100g protein, < 35g carbs?

Preferably no wheat, it gives me the sts.

I was going to suggest seitan will give you what you're looking for but it's made from wheat gluten.

[Tired]

This is maybe a quesion for the food and drink forum, but someone here might know.

I've got a bag of flash frozen, deep fried soy cubes in the freezer. My brother picked them up one day we went to the Chinese supermarket, and left them at mine.

I don't speak Chinese, there's no English instructions on them, how am I supposed to heat them?

As they're frozen, I figured if I tried to stir fry them they might go soggy?

Defrost them first? Bake them, then chuck them in a stir fry?

[Halb]

Make an igloo for your hamster?

Davos123 said:

Two years vegan, two years of cooking and eating fantastic food.

those round things in the first pic, what are they?
And I see something like a quiche. WHat are the ingredients there, home-made?

[The Surveyor]

Evanivitch said:

And Soy Milk requires about 4.8kg* of bean per litre (high protein) milk alternative.

So 1500kg in an acre gives you 7200 litres. So 7200 divided by 4046 sq m gives you 1.78l per metre.

Blows it away indeed.

Are your maths right here?

If you need 4.8kg of soy to make 1 litre, 1,500kg of soy will return 313 litres or milk substitute, not 7,200.

313 litre per acre gives you a rather poor 0.08l per m2 or have I got that wrong?

[Davos123]

Halb said:

those round things in the first pic, what are they?
And I see something like a quiche. WHat are the ingredients there, home-made?

King oyster mushrooms. Very similar texture to scallops and with the right marinade they taste just like them, too. Added bonus of being a lot cheaper!

It's a Spanish potato omlette. Was from the tipsy vegan in Norwich so no recipe unfortunately but plenty of vegan recipes for them out there online, it was bloody delicious.

[Tired]

Davos123 said:

King oyster mushrooms. Very similar texture to scallops and with the right marinade they taste just like them, too. Added bonus of being a lot cheaper!

It's a [b]Spanish potato omlette.[./b] Was from the tipsy vegan in Norwich so no recipe unfortunately but plenty of vegan recipes for them out there online, it was bloody delicious.

Is that something I'd have seen referred to as a "spanish tortilla" before?

[DoubleD]

Davos123 said:

Two years vegan, two years of cooking and eating fantastic food.

That does look good. Very colourful and vibrant.

[Davos123]

Tired said:

Is that something I'd have seen referred to as a "spanish tortilla" before?

Yes

[Tired]

Davos123 said:

Tired said:

Is that something I'd have seen referred to as a "spanish tortilla" before?

Yes

What goes into a vegan one? Egg is a key ingredient, what gets used in its place?

Generally, in baking and assorted types of cooking, eggs are a key ingredient, what are the vegan replacements?

[Evanivitch]

The Surveyor said:

Are your maths right here?

If you need 4.8kg of soy to make 1 litre, 1,500kg of soy will return 313 litres or milk substitute, not 7,200.

313 litre per acre gives you a rather poor 0.08l per m2 or have I got that wrong?

Good spot, I'm misstyped (1kg of soy gives 4.8 litres of "milk", as per my reference) but the math was correct.

[Willy Nilly]

Tired said:

I've done a bit of reading from some other sources, and it seems 1 acre per cow is correct if you want to rely solely on grazing, and that a cow will produce roughly 30L of milk per day.

That's 10000L/acre. Compared with the 5000L/acre that Farmer Willy quotes, and the 456L/acre that article you've posted quotes.

Daisy doesn't produce the same amount of milk every day. Her lactation is 305 days. It starts off fairly high then peaks at about 6 weeks the drops off before she is dried off for 2 months holiday. 10,000 litres per lactation is a good yield and would almost certainly require forage and concentrates. That said, if you could, if you can get 10,000 litres from forage you're doing something pretty well!

Here's a graph I just found https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www....

[Evanivitch]

Tired said:

That's 10000L/acre. Compared with the 5000L/acre that Farmer Willy quotes, and the 456L/acre that article you've posted quotes.

Based on that, more research would be required before you could make a definitive statement about which figure is correct.

A cow producing 10,000 litres per acre isn't just eating from that acre. It's eating concentrate food that has been grown elsewhere. So unless you can quantity that additional ground then your >5000 litres per acre value is entirely unfounded.

It's correct that the number given on the page is low, but 2 clicks and you can see this global research shows a huge variation between milk land efficiency from 1.1 to 8.9 metres squared per year per litre. Soy is 0.3 to 0.7, which roughly aligns with the comparison of highly efficient UK production and less efficient Soy agriculture we've used in this thread.

[Willy Nilly]

Evanivitch said:

So 1500kg in an acre gives you 7200 litres. So 7200 divided by 4046 sq m gives you 1.78l per metre.

Blows it away indeed.

• http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/handle/1/86288

How does 1500 kg of grain turn into 7200 litres of oat milk, which will weigh about 7200 kg? A lot of something is being added to it, what is that something? The 5,000 litres of milk you get from an acre of forage is just that, milk, ready to drink. Nothing added, nothing to add, just drink it. And where did you get 1500kg from? Oats yield about 2.5t/ac.

[Willy Nilly]

Mr Tracy said:

Willy Nilly said:

5000 litres of milk per acre from a cow easy, no processing.

Milk her every day for 305 days.

1kg of milk per square metre.

Oats yield roughly 3 tons of grain @15% moisture per acre. That would need much processing to get something akin to milk. Well a white drinkable liquid. I can keep a cow on ever acre of land I can grow oats on, but I can't grow oats on every acre of land I can keep a cow on.

How many productive years do you get out of a cow before its retired?

Really depends on how healthy she is. If she behaves, gets in calf, doesn't get mastitis, doesn't get lame or ill she could have 10 years or more productive life so live for 12 years or more. These are the best to breed from because the old cows are the best ones

[Willy Nilly]

Evanivitch said:

Willy Nilly said:

5000 litres of milk per acre from a cow easy, no processing.

Milk her every day for 305 days.

1kg of milk per square metre.

Oats yield roughly 3 tons of grain @15% moisture per acre. That would need much processing to get something akin to milk. Well a white drinkable liquid. I can keep a cow on ever acre of land I can grow oats on, but I can't grow oats on every acre of land I can keep a cow on.

How many kilos of rolled oats will I get out of that 3 tons? Oats seem to yield 2.85 litres of milky stuff from every kg of rolled oats put into the process.


And you know what, it's a completely fair point that there's lots of land you can't grow oats on, that could feed a cow. But then how many fields are we using to grow animal feed concentrate? Or the food they eat in the shed in the winter? Or the bedding they use in the winter?

3 tons of oats will give 3 tons of rolled oats.

You won't get 2.85 litres of a kilo of oats. The hectare litre weigh of oats at 14.5% moisture is around 55kg, so a litre of oats weigh about 550 grams.

Most of the concerntrate feed that is feed to cows is by product from the human food chain. When various foods that are used for human consumption there are by products from the process that we can't digest. For example, maize (corn) gluten is the by product of producing cornflakes. These are a good energy feed (it's been a long time since I worked with cows, so my memory is fading) and the cows like eating it.

Brewers grains are also fed, this comes from the beer brewing process, again, an energy feed and the cows like them too, it went into malt house as malt grade barley, which you can feed to cows, then is used to brew beer, then the remains after the process fed to livestock.

This lot https://www.tridentfeeds.co.uk/products/ is all by product from the process of producing sugar from sugar beet.

The forage crops that cows will be fed over winter is generally grown on site and stored over winter. The rule of thumb is a 200 day winter, so you need to store enough winter feed for this.

Straw. Well, crop is grown for straw. None, nothing zip. Straw is what comes out of the back of the combine after you have harvested the grain. The grain is the crop. The straw does have a value, it also has a value as fertiliser. On the combine you can either leave th straw in a row behind the machine, or chop it and blow it over the width you have cut to incorporate into the land. Chopping burns a lot of fuel, probably uses 30% or more of the combines power. It also presents problems so cultivation because us need different methods and machines to incorporate in into the soil along with a problem with slugs, diseases and weed control. You can sell the straw in the swath (row) and get some cash for it, but this needs to largely be spent on more fertiliser to replace the nutrients taken away with the straw. In a wet year you have problems with more traffic on the fields from the baler and handling of the bales. What you decide to do with the straw depends on the weather, cropping, available labour and price of the straw. A good system is muck for straw if you have animals nearby. The livestock farmer takes the straw away and the arable farmer has the muck to spread on his fields. There is a school of thought that you can't farm without aholes. We don't have any muck and I'd be surprised if our fields have seen any since WW2. We use chemical fertiliser, which is either atmospheric nitrogen fixed into an intert carrier or phosphates and potash dug out of the ground somewhere. Muck is mostly water and you have to work out how much it is worth as fertiliser keeping in mind most of what you are spreading is water, it's bloody heavy and the plant can't use it straight away so the nitrogen may leach away.

Edited by Willy Nilly on Thursday 7th February 13:34

[Tired]

Evanivitch said:

A cow producing 10,000 litres per acre isn't just eating from that acre. It's eating concentrate food that has been grown elsewhere. So unless you can quantity that additional ground then your >5000 litres per acre value is entirely unfounded.

It's correct that the number given on the page is low, but 2 clicks and you can see this global research shows a huge variation between milk land efficiency from 1.1 to 8.9 metres squared per year per litre. Soy is 0.3 to 0.7, which roughly aligns with the comparison of highly efficient UK production and less efficient Soy agriculture we've used in this thread.

Do you have a background in farming or agriculture? If you have a look around google you'll find many farmers stating they can easily accommodate up to 2 cows per acre with good land management and no additional feed.

That 1.1 to 8.9 you quote is anywhere between 455 and 3679 l/acre.

A massive range, and not a million miles away from the 5000 Farmer Willy was quoting a few pages back, when you told him he was completely wrong.

[Tired]

Willy Nilly said:

How does 1500 kg of grain turn into 7200 litres of oat milk, which will weigh about 7200 kg? A lot of something is being added to it, what is that something? The 5,000 litres of milk you get from an acre of forage is just that, milk, ready to drink. Nothing added, nothing to add, just drink it. And where did you get 1500kg from? Oats yield about 2.5t/ac.

To turn your soy bean into soy milk, you have to add roughly 5x the mass of soy, in water.

[Davos123]

Tired said:

What goes into a vegan one? Egg is a key ingredient, what gets used in its place?

Generally, in baking and assorted types of cooking, eggs are a key ingredient, what are the vegan replacements?

For baking, chickpea water/flour.

In an omelette it's often tofu.

[gizlaroc]

LDN said:

Davos123 said:

Two years vegan, two years of cooking and eating fantastic food.

Wow! Lovely stuff

And another!

Looks great.

[Tired]

Davos123 said:

For baking, chickpea water/flour.

In an omelette it's often tofu.

Thanks.