Vegan extremists

[dmulally]

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

[LDN]

dmulally said:

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

Grim.

The screams of pigs being gassed is harrowing... they are in an utter state of panic. I know one chap who worked at a slaughter house; and he said that the workers would sometimes go a little odd; he compared the effects of the kill floor to that of soldiers witnessing things at war.

Lab grown, so called ‘pure’ meat can’t come soon enough.

Hunting to survive is one thing. But eating packaged carcinogenic slabs of meat, known to contribute to ill health is beginning to look as strange as perhaps it has always been.

Remember when doctors recommended cigarettes, as being GOOD for ones health? It’s a strange world we live in.

[Ruskie]

Willy Nilly said:

LDN said:

Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.

Some farm animals are artificially inseminated. The reason for doing it is you have access to a huge gene pool rather than just the bull/boar/ram you have on site. Whatever it is you are inseminating won't conceive unless she is in season/heat whatever you want to call it. As a rule, the conception rates where AI is used are generally a little lower than natural service. This is because the bull/boar/ram is an expert in the particular field and no matter how good you animal husbandry and heat detection is, the bull is better. Trouble is, they do carry STDs and some of them can be a handful, particularly in the case of dairy bulls which are known to be quite savage. If your bull happens to be a 1 tonne + Charolais, you'll likely AI you heifers so they don't literally get squashed.

Virtually no sheep will be AI'd.
Virtually no beef cattle will be AI'd.
Quite a lot, but not all dairy cows will be AI'd.
Virtually no outdoor pigs will be AI'd
Some indoor pigs will be AI'd.

The breastfeeding analogy is nonsense. Ants do farm and lots of plants and animals have parasitic relationships with other plants and animals. No other animals drink not to quench thirst but to get pissed. Not many other animals drive cars or have been into space either.

There are some hens kept in cages aside from that, you cage/crates comment is breathtakingly ignorant.

Sheep are kept almost exclusively outside and kept extensively.

Years ago, some pigs were put in farrowing crates while they were nursing their piglets, these were banned years ago. Pigs are generally kept inside, apart from outdoor pigs, but mostly in straw yards where they can oink around and do pig stuff.

Most beef cattle will spend the summer in the fields then will be brought in for winter. Only today I saw a post on a farming page on Facebook showing a herd of beef cattle patiently waiting at the field gate to be let into the sheds because they were fed up with being outside in the rain.

When dad had his dairy cows he couldn't wait to kick them out into the field in the spring. I think now a lot of dairy cows are house all year around, but they're free to wander about and do cow stuff as they please.

Housing livestock is not about lack of space, it is about being better able to take care of them. Dring the winter they also make too much mess of the land.

There are various rule and regulations around transporting livestock regarding density, travel times, rest periods etc. None of which see to apply to air trave for people.

Please watch Dominion on YouTube. It directly contradicts what you are saying.

[dmulally]

LDN said:

dmulally said:

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

Grim.

The screams of pigs being gassed is harrowing... they are in an utter state of panic. I know one chap who worked at a slaughter house; and he said that the workers would sometimes go a little odd; he compared the effects of the kill floor to that of soldiers witnessing things at war.

Lab grown, so called ‘pure’ meat can’t come soon enough.

Hunting to survive is one thing. But eating packaged carcinogenic slabs of meat, known to contribute to ill health is beginning to look as strange as perhaps it has always been.

Remember when doctors recommended cigarettes, as being GOOD for ones health? It’s a strange world we live in.

Yeah. I think you'd need a certain mindset for that and one that I'm not made out for. I am friends with a few of the small cattle movers and one said that he demands his non refundable fee up front for people he doesn't know. Reason being he got sick of driving to the slaughterhouse only to see flashing lights in the rear view mirror and an upset farmer making terrible excuses as to why Daisy has to come home.

As an aside I was a happy meat eater until I came face to face with cows in a cattle truck. They looked st scared rolling their eyes and what not and felt like a bit of a dick saying I loved animals when it only meant my dog etc. To be fair I grew up on a Mediterranean diet that included very little meat so it wasn't a big deal.

I have pet pigs and to be fair they squeal bloody murder if one gets so much as a crumb less than another one. Drama queens.

[LDN]

dmulally said:

LDN said:

dmulally said:

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

Grim.

The screams of pigs being gassed is harrowing... they are in an utter state of panic. I know one chap who worked at a slaughter house; and he said that the workers would sometimes go a little odd; he compared the effects of the kill floor to that of soldiers witnessing things at war.

Lab grown, so called ‘pure’ meat can’t come soon enough.

Hunting to survive is one thing. But eating packaged carcinogenic slabs of meat, known to contribute to ill health is beginning to look as strange as perhaps it has always been.

Remember when doctors recommended cigarettes, as being GOOD for ones health? It’s a strange world we live in.

Yeah. I think you'd need a certain mindset for that and one that I'm not made out for. I am friends with a few of the small cattle movers and one said that he demands his non refundable fee up front for people he doesn't know. Reason being he got sick of driving to the slaughterhouse only to see flashing lights in the rear view mirror and an upset farmer making terrible excuses as to why Daisy has to come home.

As an aside I was a happy meat eater until I came face to face with cows in a cattle truck. They looked st scared rolling their eyes and what not and felt like a bit of a dick saying I loved animals when it only meant my dog etc. To be fair I grew up on a Mediterranean diet that included very little meat so it wasn't a big deal.

I have pet pigs and to be fair they squeal bloody murder if one gets so much as a crumb less than another one. Drama queens.

a pig is a dog is a child.

Yes; cattle, pigs... same chap I mentioned said they’ve be often physically shaking, in fear when they arrived at the slaughterhouse. Some unbelievably grim tales. Stuff that would make most people vomit. It’s why he said the workers often went a bit odd. Or were odd in the first place!

The proverbial cat is slowly being let out of the bag. People are beginning to realise these things, alongside the health issue with meat consumption.

As I said before; veganism is becoming the new macho.

[LDN]

coyft said:

LDN said:

Animal agriculture will, not in our lifetime, be studied in history books and looked upon unkindly.

I'm not a vegan, my son is. Having listened to his reasons and consequently thought about it a bit myself, it's almost impossible to intellectually justify eating farmed animals.

I wouldn't be surprised if Veganism becomes mainstream within the next 25 years.

Indeed! It seems that that’s where things are heading.

You are right that, intellectually, it’s very very difficult to justify... once you get passed the surface bravado / denial stage. Some behaviours are so normalised; that the major step in moral evolution can drag its feet, but the momentum does seem to be pushing toward meat / animal agriculture being shown for what it really is; on all levels... environmentally, ethically, morally, etc.

[dmulally]

coyft said:

I'm not a vegan, my son is. Having listened to his reasons and consequently thought about it a bit myself, it's almost impossible to intellectually justify eating farmed animals.

I wouldn't be surprised if Veganism becomes mainstream within the next 25 years.

Hey, that is really interesting to hear. Do you mind sharing what he says? There is so much propaganda these days that I don't even look at it.

And just to be up front I run an animal rescue farm so don't eat meat but I do eat what plops out of my chooks most days.

[hutchst]

coyft said:

I'm not a vegan, my son is. Having listened to his reasons and consequently thought about it a bit myself, it's almost impossible to intellectually justify eating farmed animals.

I wouldn't be surprised if Veganism becomes mainstream within the next 25 years.

Did he offer to sell you some beans?

[Willy Nilly]

dmulally said:

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

Why would a cow be hacked to death with a chainsaw in a field? I ask this as someone that was brought up on a farm, spent 4 years at agricultural college, 2 and half years as in intern in the USA working in agriculture and spent my entire working life in agriculture. Frankly, I don't believe you.

[Willy Nilly]

LDN said:

dmulally said:

I had the joy of hearing two cows watch their siblings get hacked up with a chainsaw right outside my cabin deck on next doors farm yesterday. The two cows left behind screeched and moo'd well into the night whilst running over the blood patch. This morning it looked like there was a fence down too.

Interestingly enough I noticed the neighbour's left the homekill guy to it and left the farm in a hurry. Perhaps they didn't like the noise.

I'm still yet to hear a vegan condescendingly preach (I'm not one). Meat eaters on the other hand...

Grim.

The screams of pigs being gassed is harrowing... they are in an utter state of panic. I know one chap who worked at a slaughter house; and he said that the workers would sometimes go a little odd; he compared the effects of the kill floor to that of soldiers witnessing things at war.

Lab grown, so called ‘pure’ meat can’t come soon enough.

Hunting to survive is one thing. But eating packaged carcinogenic slabs of meat, known to contribute to ill health is beginning to look as strange as perhaps it has always been.

Remember when doctors recommended cigarettes, as being GOOD for ones health? It’s a strange world we live in.

I've not been to the new abattoirs where CO2 is used, but I've been to 2 back in the 1990's and saw sheep, pigs and cattle killed. There was industrial noise and noise related to animals being moved, but there was no screaming that I recall, it was all pretty calm. I read an article about them while on holiday in German this year and as I understand it, it is all done to improve the welfare of the animals and took a few seconds. Stress animals are hard to handle, so the calmer they are, the calmer the whole operation is and the better the product they are selling is. Each section of the operation will be out of sight of the animals, so they'll have no idea what's going on.

Why would packaged meat be carcinogenic, it's the same meat that someone would eat if they chased the animal around the field with a spear? I can only assume it is something to do with the packaging, which is similar to what all food is packaged in. The health risk linked to meat are down to eating too much, a generally poor diet and lack of exercise. I know a vegan who's diet is terrible, far worse than mine.

One would certainly need to be of a type to be on the shop floor in a slaughterhouse, but that is largely the same for all . Commuting int London every day drives people mad and causes a lot of stress. I could work in an office because I'd kill everyone, I love working alone, other hate it. etc.

Edited by Willy Nilly on Thursday 8th November 06:57

[Willy Nilly]

LDN said:

Intensive farming has been on the rise. For a few reasons. The picture of animals roaming freely before the slaughterhouse are true for only a part of the animal livestock population. It’s a picture you’ve painted as it seems familiar to you; but the bigger picture is nothing like that.

I was brought up on a dairy farm;
I spent 4 years, well 5 including my middle (placement year) in further education at agricultural college;
I spent 2 and a half years in the USA as an intern working in agriculture;
I have only ever worked in agriculture;
I read, lurk and post on just about every forum and website related to farming that speaks English.
Currently, I'm a sprayer operator and combine operator.

So consider myself reasonably well informed on the subject

[Willy Nilly]

LDN said:

a pig is a dog is a child.

Yes; cattle, pigs... same chap I mentioned said they’ve be often physically shaking, in fear when they arrived at the slaughterhouse.

Dad had a new heifer delivered as per the norm and she was shaking when she got off the lorry to meet her new mates. Some animals are just nervous. She would have been low down the pecking order in any herd rather than the alpha cow. I've moved some calves across a yard when I was a kid and we coldn't get them out of the building, so took them out one by one with a bag on their head, which was the only way we could get them through the door. The last one was trembling.

When I worked on the outdoor pig unit we would wean on a Thursday. The little ones were picked up by hand and put in the trailer to be taken to insulated huts. Pretty much as soon as the hit the straw they started to snuffle around and would find the feeder in seconds. By the time we'd unloaded the trailer, picking them out one by one, the group had settled down, was feeding, snuffling about and making that contented grunt that pigs make. This was on a very intensive, highly managed, high output pig unit.

[br d]

The tone of this thread is quiet enlightening in itself. I've been vegetarian for 30 odd years and been around PH for about 12 of them and this particular discussion definitely has a different feel to the many previous ones presented here. After 3 or 4 pages any debate on meat free diets has usually descended into boasts of how many bacon sandwiches various members can eat!

There is definitely a deeper awareness of the processes and health risks involved in the meat industry amongst the general public lately, and seemingly more concern for the actual well being of livestock.

To be clear I don't preach to people about their dietary choices and wouldn't dream of telling people how they should live their lives (I have known people for years who had no idea I was a vegetarian until I had to ask specifically for certain meals in their presence) but it is refreshing to see that the debate is maturing somewhat.

Even amongst the bunch of oily reprobates that we piston headers pride ourselves on being!

[Burwood]

StevieBee said:

Francis85 said:

Sausages and local butchers are not a good mix. Stick to the big names at the supermarket.

You're going to the wrong butchers.

It's normally top grade meat but unattractive cuts that wouldn't sell 'off the tray'. Bit of seasoning and that's it. The supermarket mass produced ones will have all manner of bulking ingredients.

That said, I could murder a Saveloy right now - and that's just a plastic tube of hooves, anus and lips.

Two things. You are 100% correct. Secondly, extreme vegans, no different to all the other extremists such as Greenpeace, PETA, anti abortionists killing Dr’s. Just criminals.

[smifffymoto]

Vegans also seem to think that growing veg has no environmental impact.Go on Google satellite view and look at Almeria in Spain,it is a sea of plastic.
Mrs S and I took our tandem on a tour around there in the summer,it’s discusting.Rotting plastic is dumped,migrant labour live in squalor.Simon Reeve touched on it in his series around the Med.

[StevieBee]

Burwood said:

Two things. You are 100% correct. Secondly, extreme vegans, no different to all the other extremists such as Greenpeace, PETA, anti abortionists killing Dr’s. Just criminals.

James O'Brien on LBC yesterday made a very good argument that such people are in fact terrorists - those that inflict violence or threat of violence on those that do not align with their beliefs.

[Burwood]

He’s correct. No different to Religious nut jobs

[Burwood]

smifffymoto said:

Vegans also seem to think that growing veg has no environmental impact.Go on Google satellite view and look at Almeria in Spain,it is a sea of plastic.
Mrs S and I took our tandem on a tour around there in the summer,it’s discusting.Rotting plastic is dumped,migrant labour live in squalor.Simon Reeve touched on it in his series around the Med.

My view. Eat whatever you want. Personally, I think it’s an unnatural and unhealthy choice, eating plant matter. But you can fk off telling others what to do.

I’ve mentioned on here before the ordering a steak in a restaurant. On asking the waitress ‘how’s the steak’ only to get a response ‘I wouldn’t know I don’t eat meat’. Annoyed me that. Stupid woman. If I was her boss she’d get a written warning.

[LDN]

Taking in most of the points; vegans are not like religious nut jobs; because religious but jobs represent and fight for a make believe ‘fairy tale for adults’ if you will. Whereas veganism seeks to reduce suffering / animal exploitation and the betterment of the planet as a whole. Of course there are vegan extremists; there are millions more conservative vegans / vegetarians.

Regarding the Land used for vegetables / soya. The majority of soya, for example, is grown for livestock consumption. And so, if the Land being used for anything other than livestock is a concern; then veganism is still the answer. Year on year; between 70% and 85% of soya grown is to go into the animal agriculture food chain. It’s inefficient, and will be looked back upon as a farcical use of land and resources. But luckily, awareness is changing in this regard.

[LDN]

Burwood said:

I’ve mentioned on here before the ordering a steak in a restaurant. On asking the waitress ‘how’s the steak’ only to get a response ‘I wouldn’t know I don’t eat meat’. Annoyed me that. Stupid woman. If I was her boss she’d get a written warning.

You thin skinned snowflake you