Vegan extremists
Discussion
bulldong said:
Just for the record, I am not vegan and never will be, so I am not trying to start a fight here about what is and isn't vegan and whether I think it is good or not.
I think the key distinction is that a bacteria doesn't have a nervous system and is therefore OK to eat.
Again not wishing to fight, I always wondered where the dividing line is. Is yeast a plant or animal? Having seen yeast's speed of reaction to sugar in a fermentation solution I can see the argument for animal.I think the key distinction is that a bacteria doesn't have a nervous system and is therefore OK to eat.
Similarly scallops- many see them as a shellfish animal but my veggie friend's usual definition of what she won't eat is "anything with a face or a mother". My usual definition is self-awareness & motion at will but again it can be a very blurry divide.
As I said, where is the dividing line between plant & animal?
otolith said:
I suppose the difference, not that it really matters, is that if you wanted to live a life without consuming supplements either directly or via feeding, you would have to eat (unsupplemented) meat.
Nigh on impossible; unless you hunt wild. Which I’ve already said, is a far more pure and ethical way of obtaining meat... if it’s for survival. If it’s not for survival, then on the subject at hand; it does satisfy one debate; but again, bringing morality into it; it’s questionable; simply because; if it’s not for for ones survival or well being; then it’s unnecessry. We are talking about feeding a global population. Animals have to be packed tight to sustain us. Even in this country. It’s unnatural and leads to additives in feed and drugs to control disease in overpopulated livestock sectors. So fortified foods aren’t bad how? We don’t live as cavemen any more... and as I’ve stated before; there’s a shift in direction with regard animal agriculture. We are seeing the very beginning of so called clean meat investment and research. If people have an issue with fortified foods / affected foods; then they’d also stop eating meat. That’s what led me to say; you can’t have it both ways.
Nanook said:
LDN said:
But the point I’m making is... B12 from fortified sources is bad, why?
Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.
So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.
The point was never about whether or not the meat that the rest of us eat is fortified with anything. We're not talking about our diet.Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.
So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.
We're asking about yours.
Do you take vegan B12 supplements?
And when you say ‘the point’ - you mean your point... I’ve made points also, that are related to the answer you seek.
Does that mean that meat eaters such as my self who seek out responsibly sourced products are basically animal rights campaigners? 
Totally agree that nearly all commercially available meat products are barely fit for human consumption. Although I’m sure they still at least contain the essential micronutrients that nature intended the animals to give us.
Totally agree that nearly all commercially available meat products are barely fit for human consumption. Although I’m sure they still at least contain the essential micronutrients that nature intended the animals to give us.
Rovinghawk said:
bulldong said:
Just for the record, I am not vegan and never will be, so I am not trying to start a fight here about what is and isn't vegan and whether I think it is good or not.
I think the key distinction is that a bacteria doesn't have a nervous system and is therefore OK to eat.
Again not wishing to fight, I always wondered where the dividing line is. Is yeast a plant or animal? Having seen yeast's speed of reaction to sugar in a fermentation solution I can see the argument for animal.I think the key distinction is that a bacteria doesn't have a nervous system and is therefore OK to eat.
Similarly scallops- many see them as a shellfish animal but my veggie friend's usual definition of what she won't eat is "anything with a face or a mother". My usual definition is self-awareness & motion at will but again it can be a very blurry divide.
As I said, where is the dividing line between plant & animal?
LDN said:
The bottom line is; the reason to eat meat is simply: because one can, and because one likes to.
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
LDN said:
otolith said:
I suppose the difference, not that it really matters, is that if you wanted to live a life without consuming supplements either directly or via feeding, you would have to eat (unsupplemented) meat.
Nigh on impossible; unless you hunt wild.grumbledoak said:
LDN said:
The bottom line is; the reason to eat meat is simply: because one can, and because one likes to.
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
Again; throughout the thread, I’ve put up stats and neutral sources stating your assertion to be entirely false. Sportspeople have been given as examples; performing at the top of their game. So your assertion is plainly false.
If you really mean that meat is a more readily available source of specific nutrients, then that’s another debate and one we might find that we agree on, on certain aspects. But if your assertion remains that you cannot be healthy and vegan; you’re wrong. And there’s an irony to that assertion given the heath issues related to meat and dairy. Again; I’m not saying you cannot be healthy and eat meat; I’m saying you don’t have to eat meat to be healthy. Your assertion is that you cannot be healthy and be vegan. When the opposite is true.
grumbledoak said:
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.
Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
Can’t disagree with that. Moral hangups aside for a moment, we play a carnivorous role in the food chain and we are biologically adapated to consume other animals.Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
grumbledoak said:
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.
Citations needed. You are asserting b
ks opinion as scientific fact. Davos123 said:
otolith said:
I don't see why someone who is vegan on ethical grounds wouldn't eat mussels.
If they're farmed, I have little ethical objection, however it's not just mussels that are caught when they're wild.Kenny Powers said:
grumbledoak said:
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.
Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
Can’t disagree with that. Moral hangups aside for a moment, we play a carnivorous role in the food chain and we are biologically adapated to consume other animals.Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
He couldn’t be further wide of the mark.
He needs to back such an assertion with evidence of balanced vegan diets leading to issues, health wise... when vegan and vegetarian diets have been found to lead to longer life expectancy, there’s an irony! He needs to back the assertion with a list of nutrients that cannot be had as a vegan or a vegetarian... be it via diet or fortified foods; just like livestock is fortified and affected. He will find that there’s nothing that cannot be had. Literally nothing.
And so; assertions are vacuous without any actual back up to that assertion.
My point stands. The reason to eat meat is because one can, and one likes to. It doesn’t get any more complicated than that.
LDN said:
Sentience. Consciousness. Central nervous system. Basically, the ability to feel fear, pain, and to suffer. Cows wail for their calf’s when they’re taken away. There’s a motherly bond. Pigs scramble and fight to escape the plunge cages when being gassed. Animals turn on each other in intensive farming lots. Animals die of stress in transport. The list goes on. It’s obviously to do with sentience and the ability to fear and feel pain. If it were necessary, it would be a hard sell; and I could understand that. But it’s not necessary. And so, applying some logic goes a long way to coming up with conclusions that might shake long held beliefs. I ate meat every day. I was a massive meat eater and probably ate more than you or most on this thread... as well, every point or assertion I’ve seen here; I’ve made the same point and asserted the same thing. Trust me. But, I dug deeper and went to town on research and looked at all the levels regarding this debate. The bottom line is; the reason to eat meat is simply: because one can, and because one likes to. Morally, ethically, environmentally, physiologically; all aspects can be dealt with, with a new found willingness to open up to new ideas, and a dash of logic.
Are you vegan Trump?Don't want to kill animals..but if did would be better at it than any meat eater.
Don't eat meat now...but when did, ate more than any meat eater ever did.
Thinks vegan friends are better looking and fitter than a group of meat eaters.
Numerous other examples.
Weird.
Oh and you haven't proven anything.
You don't need to be vegan to have a healthy diet so there is ZERO reason to be vegan on health grounds.
Regarding the health risks, there’s some research that suggests veganism is associated with increased risk of atherosclerosis. I’m not asserting this as definitive causation, but biologically it’s plausible due to the proinflammatory effect of a diet inevitably high in grains and starch.
LDN said:
Kenny Powers said:
grumbledoak said:
No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.
Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
Can’t disagree with that. Moral hangups aside for a moment, we play a carnivorous role in the food chain and we are biologically adapated to consume other animals.Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.
He couldn’t be further wide of the mark.
He needs to back such an assertion with evidence of balanced vegan diets leading to issues, health wise... when vegan and vegetarian diets have been found to lead to longer life expectancy, there’s an irony! He needs to back the assertion with a list of nutrients that cannot be had as a vegan or a vegetarian... be it via diet or fortified foods; just like livestock is fortified and affected. He will find that there’s nothing that cannot be had. Literally nothing.
And so; assertions are vacuous without any actual back up to that assertion.
My point stands. The reason to eat meat is because one can, and one likes to. It doesn’t get any more complicated than that.
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