Vegan extremists

[LDN]

Rollin said:

LDN said:

Sentience. Consciousness. Central nervous system. Basically, the ability to feel fear, pain, and to suffer. Cows wail for their calf’s when they’re taken away. There’s a motherly bond. Pigs scramble and fight to escape the plunge cages when being gassed. Animals turn on each other in intensive farming lots. Animals die of stress in transport. The list goes on. It’s obviously to do with sentience and the ability to fear and feel pain. If it were necessary, it would be a hard sell; and I could understand that. But it’s not necessary. And so, applying some logic goes a long way to coming up with conclusions that might shake long held beliefs. I ate meat every day. I was a massive meat eater and probably ate more than you or most on this thread... as well, every point or assertion I’ve seen here; I’ve made the same point and asserted the same thing. Trust me. But, I dug deeper and went to town on research and looked at all the levels regarding this debate. The bottom line is; the reason to eat meat is simply: because one can, and because one likes to. Morally, ethically, environmentally, physiologically; all aspects can be dealt with, with a new found willingness to open up to new ideas, and a dash of logic.

Are you vegan Trump?

Don't want to kill animals..but if did would be better at it than any meat eater.

Don't eat meat now...but when did, ate more than any meat eater ever did.

Thinks vegan friends are better looking and fitter than a group of meat eaters.

Numerous other examples.
Weird.

Oh and you haven't proven anything.

You don't need to be vegan to have a healthy diet so there is ZERO reason to be vegan on health grounds.

Break down what’s ‘weird’ about my post...

The meat eaters engaging in conversation here seem to be mostly of the conscious meat eating variety. In that, they speak of ethically sourced meat and only eating meat on certain days etc. I ate meat every day, three times a day; sometimes four. And so, I ate meat more than the average person, indeed.

The meat eaters I know are squeamish about eating animals and bury their head in the sand. I know what’s involved in animal agriculture and in hunting and so, i would, ironically; be quicker to do what’s necessary to survive. Yes. Survival is something that; I’d do a lot more than eat meat for.

Your last presumption; I never actually stated.

The last sentence: I’ve said all along that one can eat meat and be healthy... and so where’s your argument? I’ve added to that, that one can be vegan and be healthy also. So the point your making is what exactly?

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

LDN said:

Kenny Powers said:

grumbledoak said:

No. The main reason to eat meat is for the nutritional value. Babies and children require animal products to thrive. Adults can survive as vegans for a while, but most are unhealthy and many will quit when their health starts to fail.

Adults should be free to do as they please, of course. Just not free to inflict their beliefs on others.

Can’t disagree with that. Moral hangups aside for a moment, we play a carnivorous role in the food chain and we are biologically adapated to consume other animals.

It’s entirely false I’m afraid. He asserted that vegans can only just survive and also, not for long

He couldn’t be further wide of the mark.

He needs to back such an assertion with evidence of balanced vegan diets leading to issues, health wise... when vegan and vegetarian diets have been found to lead to longer life expectancy, there’s an irony! He needs to back the assertion with a list of nutrients that cannot be had as a vegan or a vegetarian... be it via diet or fortified foods; just like livestock is fortified and affected. He will find that there’s nothing that cannot be had. Literally nothing.

And so; assertions are vacuous without any actual back up to that assertion.

My point stands. The reason to eat meat is because one can, and one likes to. It doesn’t get any more complicated than that.

So we’re not biologically adapated to consume other animals? Is that what you’re “asserting”?

We are able to eat meat and dairy, yes. Does that mean it’s necessary for well being? No. It’s no more complicated than that.

Now back to his assertions; no question mark over them?

[Kenny Powers]

In your opinion.

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

In your opinion.

Backed by facts.

[Kenny Powers]

LDN said:

Backed by facts.

It’s a fact that humans thrive on animal fats and proteins. Because we are animals too. We’re made of the same stuff. It’s used to build and repair the body. That’s not an opinion.

By all means promote the moral standpoint of veganism but don’t bury your head in the sand and assert with absolute authority that you can get the same quality of nutrition from a bowl of Shreddies fortified with vitamins.

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

LDN said:

Backed by facts.

It’s a fact that humans thrive on animal fats and proteins. Because were animals too. We’re made of the same stuff. It’s used to build and repair the body. That’s not an opinion.

By all means promote the moral standpoint of veganism but don’t bury your head in the sand and assert with absolute authority that you can get the same quality of nutrition from a bowll of Shreddies fortified with vitamins.

Cop out.

We “thrive on animals fats, because we’re animals too” ... so what of animals that thrive on things other than animal fats? You can do better. Hint; go and get a list of these fats and proteins that cannot be had from other sources. Plenty, including the NHS’s own directives, disagree with you. I’ll be waiting...

Lastly, when did I say a bowl of shreddies would be enough to sustain a human? I didn’t! And so, flippancy, in this instance, undermines your assertions

[Kenny Powers]

No thanks. I don’t have the inclination to play a game of quote chess, and I said a while back in this discussion that I don’t wish to get into a twenty page debate about it. Let’s just amicably agree to disagree.

In my view eating animal foods is essential for good human health. You disagree.

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

Let’s just amicably agree to disagree.

No problem. It’s often how these debates end

Kenny Powers said:

In my view eating animal foods is essential for good human health. You disagree.

Indeed I do. And it’s not just a view I hold... it’s a fact; like red is red or blue is blue.

[Halb]

otolith said:

I don't see why someone who is vegan on ethical grounds wouldn't eat mussels.

this popped up on a recent joe rogan podcast, with two chefs talking about Manhattan, sounded fishy to me at first, after a quick look, seems ones that eat bivalves are called ostrovegans

Edited by Halb on Thursday 22 November 15:41

[LDN]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Nanook said:

LDN said:

But the point I’m making is... B12 from fortified sources is bad, why?

Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.

So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.

The point was never about whether or not the meat that the rest of us eat is fortified with anything. We're not talking about our diet.

We're asking about yours.

Do you take vegan B12 supplements?

I don’t.

And when you say ‘the point’ - you mean your point... I’ve made points also, that are related to the answer you seek.

How do you get enough vitamin B12 then?

Through cereal and soya

[Digga]

LDN said:

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Nanook said:

LDN said:

But the point I’m making is... B12 from fortified sources is bad, why?

Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.

So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.

The point was never about whether or not the meat that the rest of us eat is fortified with anything. We're not talking about our diet.

We're asking about yours.

Do you take vegan B12 supplements?

I don’t.

And when you say ‘the point’ - you mean your point... I’ve made points also, that are related to the answer you seek.

How do you get enough vitamin B12 then?

Through cereal and soya

Is the wrong answer.

[LDN]

Digga said:

LDN said:

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Nanook said:

LDN said:

But the point I’m making is... B12 from fortified sources is bad, why?

Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.

So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.

The point was never about whether or not the meat that the rest of us eat is fortified with anything. We're not talking about our diet.

We're asking about yours.

Do you take vegan B12 supplements?

I don’t.

And when you say ‘the point’ - you mean your point... I’ve made points also, that are related to the answer you seek.

How do you get enough vitamin B12 then?

Through cereal and soya

Is the wrong answer.

[LDN]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Through cereal and soya

And how does it get into the cereal?

It’s fortified; like umpteen other foods are. It’s affected like umpteen other foods are, including livestock.

[Kenny Powers]

Soybean production is one of the most environmentally destructive crops on the planet. Not to mention genetically modified.

[LDN]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

It’s fortified; like umpteen other foods are. It’s affected like umpteen other foods are, including livestock.

Yes, it's fortified.

You know what that word means, yeah?

So where does this vitamin B12 come from? I'm genuinely asking, as I do not know.

Once again, we're not talking about livestock, or what they're fed, we're talking about veganism.

I'd appreciate if you'd answer the above, if you know, but it appears we do agree, in that a vegan diet is healthy, as long as it's supplemented/fortified, to compensate for the things you're missing out on.

‘Things’ plural? What are these things that are being missed out on?

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

Soybean production is one of the most environmentally destructive crops on the planet. Not to mention genetically modified.

Oh god!!!

You’ve got me








... or not. I’m afraid to tell you; you’re late to the party

Guess where 90% of soya crops go...

[Kenny Powers]

At a guess I would say feeding you and other animals?

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

At a guess I would say feeding you and other animals?

Naivety. A blessing and a curse ey.

Sarcasm aside; read back through the thread. All the figures and stats are there.

You want to decrease soya production drastically? Go vegan.

It’s another misunderstood angle and a trap that non-vegans often walk in to.

[Kenny Powers]

Ah I see. Thanks. I wasn’t aware of that. Just seemed a bit daft consuming soy yourself when it’s responsible for massive environmental destruction and loss of animal life, but as long as you’re using it to save the planet then I guess that’s ok.

[grumbledoak]

Soybean is grown for the oil, either for eating or cooking, some biodiesel. The waste is fed to animals.

https://unitedsoybean.org/media-center/industrial/

Edited by grumbledoak on Thursday 22 November 16:21