Yellow vests - fuel protest day of action in France
Discussion
Getragdogleg said:
PositronicRay said:
Balmoral said:
B'stard Child said:
If the EU ran everything and we had just the equivalent of local councils in the UK I'd be OK with that.
That's where it's going, it's refreshing to hear somone who understands that and is happy to say they're up for it too.Countries will only exist in a historical cultural context, there will be no Nation States with their own governments. That is the point of the EU, it is what it is for, that's how you end war, by removing the National interest, and you do that by removing the Nation States themselves, that's the next half of the plan and this comes when members are so dependant they've gone past the point of no return and cannot escape even if they want to. Meanwhile everyone and their dog focuses on the infinitessimally trivial issue (in comparison) of a short term economic shock.
The central government would be so far removed from the ordinary person that it would be difficult to challenge any poor legislation, rules made up to suit one region could have a negative impact on others.
You also have the problem of an unchecked political elite. with a super state you have a huge top heavy layer of untouchable politicians.
People are corrupt, they get away with what they can, this is why its a bad idea to have communism and why its also a bad idea to try a centralised superstate.
It's not far from living memory that Italy became unified.
PositronicRay said:
Getragdogleg said:
PositronicRay said:
Balmoral said:
B'stard Child said:
If the EU ran everything and we had just the equivalent of local councils in the UK I'd be OK with that.
That's where it's going, it's refreshing to hear somone who understands that and is happy to say they're up for it too.Countries will only exist in a historical cultural context, there will be no Nation States with their own governments. That is the point of the EU, it is what it is for, that's how you end war, by removing the National interest, and you do that by removing the Nation States themselves, that's the next half of the plan and this comes when members are so dependant they've gone past the point of no return and cannot escape even if they want to. Meanwhile everyone and their dog focuses on the infinitessimally trivial issue (in comparison) of a short term economic shock.
The central government would be so far removed from the ordinary person that it would be difficult to challenge any poor legislation, rules made up to suit one region could have a negative impact on others.
You also have the problem of an unchecked political elite. with a super state you have a huge top heavy layer of untouchable politicians.
People are corrupt, they get away with what they can, this is why its a bad idea to have communism and why its also a bad idea to try a centralised superstate.
It's not far from living memory that Italy became unified.
PositronicRay said:
Getragdogleg said:
PositronicRay said:
Balmoral said:
B'stard Child said:
If the EU ran everything and we had just the equivalent of local councils in the UK I'd be OK with that.
That's where it's going, it's refreshing to hear somone who understands that and is happy to say they're up for it too.Countries will only exist in a historical cultural context, there will be no Nation States with their own governments. That is the point of the EU, it is what it is for, that's how you end war, by removing the National interest, and you do that by removing the Nation States themselves, that's the next half of the plan and this comes when members are so dependant they've gone past the point of no return and cannot escape even if they want to. Meanwhile everyone and their dog focuses on the infinitessimally trivial issue (in comparison) of a short term economic shock.
The central government would be so far removed from the ordinary person that it would be difficult to challenge any poor legislation, rules made up to suit one region could have a negative impact on others.
You also have the problem of an unchecked political elite. with a super state you have a huge top heavy layer of untouchable politicians.
People are corrupt, they get away with what they can, this is why its a bad idea to have communism and why its also a bad idea to try a centralised superstate.
It's not far from living memory that Italy became unified.
To suggest a permanent solution is possible is to forget human nature and is at best a daydream. We are just this time periods forces at work.
PositronicRay said:
I understand what you're saying. However how small do we take it to be effective? Break away from Scotland, NI and Wales? Set east Anglia and Yorkshire free? Declare independence for the Roseland? Live in a Kibbutz?
It's not far from living memory that Italy became unified.
Simply it must be governance through consent. Therefore you need to be able to have some kind of active say in your government. Simply at the moment this does not exist within the EU as evidenced most recently by Germany's flagrant violation of law in the past couple of years and the EU's inaction. It's not far from living memory that Italy became unified.
Furthermore a continued disconnect is evidenced by the lack of acknowledgement of the root causes of Brexit by the EU. They will not change because they (the individual politicians) cannot be changed by popular consensus.
The EU structure is more autocracy than democracy. Can you think of any autocratic regimes in the world where you'd like to live? This is what will happen on the mainland eventually.
I was talking to my Supplier in France this morning, one of their customers has a motorcycle shop in Paris, and the looters were queuing outside the shop, turning up in stolen cars to load motorcycle garments and gloves, the shop has nothing left.
My supplier says Paris is no go at the moment, she wants to go shopping but wont go near the place, as they are smashing and looting everywhere, more this Saturday apparently..
My supplier says Paris is no go at the moment, she wants to go shopping but wont go near the place, as they are smashing and looting everywhere, more this Saturday apparently..
B'stard Child said:
Except that's not all of it every country making up the 500m still has it's own layer of cake as well
If the EU ran everything and we had just the equivalent of local councils in the UK I'd be OK with that.
But we don't we have a heap of government here and a heap over there and we do not need both
I understand your argument but disagree as to which layer needs removal- the EU is unaccountable & totally at odds with our wishes so my preferred target for extinction.If the EU ran everything and we had just the equivalent of local councils in the UK I'd be OK with that.
But we don't we have a heap of government here and a heap over there and we do not need both
John145 said:
Simply it must be governance through consent.
Why must it be? There are plenty of people who are happy with an autocratic government. The Chinese are happy with a one party state which has done far more to lift millions out of poverty. India is a democracy but it hasn't made anywhere near the strides of China to improve the life of its citizens.People care more about their financial well being than the type of state they are living in. In Europe the Greeks decided they were better off keeping the Euro than anything else.
When it comes to Brexit is was those who have little interest in the future of the economy made up a large section of leave support (i.e. those living on state benefits),
Edited by Fittster on Tuesday 11th December 10:38
Fittster said:
Why must it be? There are plenty of people who are happy with an autocratic government. The Chinese are happy with a one party state which has done far more to lift millions out of poverty. India is a democracy but it hasn't made anywhere near the strides of China to improve the life of its citizens.
People care more about their financial well being than the type of state they are living in. In Europe the Greeks decided they were better off keeping the Euro than anything else.
When it comes to Brexit is was those who have little interest in the future of the economy made up a large section of leave support (i.e. those living on state benefits),
You've got to be kidding about China? Have you ever been?? They are a criminal state stealing technology from the world, ignoring internationally recognised copyright or intellectual property all the time continuously monitoriing their entire population and producing "social scores" which effect your access to everything from jobs, marriage, housing, "freedom". People care more about their financial well being than the type of state they are living in. In Europe the Greeks decided they were better off keeping the Euro than anything else.
When it comes to Brexit is was those who have little interest in the future of the economy made up a large section of leave support (i.e. those living on state benefits),
Edited by Fittster on Tuesday 11th December 10:38
China will never lead the world because it is a one party state and wants to make it a 1 people state.
How many people are currently incarcerated in "reeducation programmes"? How many people were murdered under Mao?
Maybe you're of the mindset of the end justifies the means... India is struggling but it is progressing. It takes time to bring willful education to a billion people. Of course it takes less time if you're happy with mass murder and huge reeducation and internment centres all in the name of The Party (or The Project).
China has no interest in its people. It only has interest in the "right" people.
The poorest areas of London voted overwhelmingly for Remain so don't give me crap about benefit scroungers want Brexit.
Fittster said:
<snip>
The Chinese are happy with a one party state which has done far more to lift millions out of poverty....
Are you sure the Chinese are really happy with a one party state? Seems to me, they don't have a lot of choice. Just look what happened the last time the people in Tiananmen Square decided they might prefer democracy... several hundred massacred by the government....The Chinese are happy with a one party state which has done far more to lift millions out of poverty....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/j...
So after lecturing Italy about their burgeoning budget deficit, France follows suit.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
Macron has kind of capitulated but it doesn’t seem to be the end of his woes
His bribe to the yellow vests is expected to cost the economy €10bn +
The deficit is already running at 2.9% and this give away is expected to push to France outiside the EU’s fiscal rules which may find the EU refusing to agree to it much like they have done with the Italian budget
Meanwhile as the students demonstrate nationally today against Macron’s changes to the education system and more protests are planned for the weekend he has asked businesses to pay staff a Xmas bonus which they must fund but won’t be taxed
Edited to add that FR24 are now reporting that Italy has raised objections to Macron’s give away saying deficit rules should apply equally to all
His bribe to the yellow vests is expected to cost the economy €10bn +
The deficit is already running at 2.9% and this give away is expected to push to France outiside the EU’s fiscal rules which may find the EU refusing to agree to it much like they have done with the Italian budget
Meanwhile as the students demonstrate nationally today against Macron’s changes to the education system and more protests are planned for the weekend he has asked businesses to pay staff a Xmas bonus which they must fund but won’t be taxed
Edited to add that FR24 are now reporting that Italy has raised objections to Macron’s give away saying deficit rules should apply equally to all
Edited by Earthdweller on Tuesday 11th December 16:14
rdjohn said:
So after lecturing Italy about their burgeoning budget deficit, France follows suit.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
To be fair, they have previous in this regard.https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
All of this and the riots in France only serve to highlight why there is nothing to which we can benefit from being too closely associated with.
Digga said:
rdjohn said:
So after lecturing Italy about their burgeoning budget deficit, France follows suit.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
To be fair, they have previous in this regard.https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-protests/...
All of this and the riots in France only serve to highlight why there is nothing to which we can benefit from being too closely associated with.
The only time they acted was when the Euro was threatened with a ratings agency downgrade.
Plenty more to come.
Wait till Italy kicks off
rdjohn said:
If the UK stays, I think after the May elections then Farage could find himself in the centre-right of EU politics.
Times - they are a changin’. And not for the better.
Nope. He has not been voted into any position to represent anyone in any political party. He's tried to get elected as an MP multiple times but failed.Times - they are a changin’. And not for the better.
Earthdweller said:
Macron has kind of capitulated but it doesn’t seem to be the end of his woes
His bribe to the yellow vests is expected to cost the economy €10bn +
The deficit is already running at 2.9% and this give away is expected to push to France outiside the EU’s fiscal rules which may find the EU refusing to agree to it much like they have done with the Italian budget
Meanwhile as the students demonstrate nationally today against Macron’s changes to the education system and more protests are planned for the weekend he has asked businesses to pay staff a Xmas bonus which they must fund but won’t be taxed
Edited to add that FR24 are now reporting that Italy has raised objections to Macron’s give away saying deficit rules should apply equally to all
Someone making a whole bunch of unfunded proposals to win support? That sounds strangely familiar...His bribe to the yellow vests is expected to cost the economy €10bn +
The deficit is already running at 2.9% and this give away is expected to push to France outiside the EU’s fiscal rules which may find the EU refusing to agree to it much like they have done with the Italian budget
Meanwhile as the students demonstrate nationally today against Macron’s changes to the education system and more protests are planned for the weekend he has asked businesses to pay staff a Xmas bonus which they must fund but won’t be taxed
Edited to add that FR24 are now reporting that Italy has raised objections to Macron’s give away saying deficit rules should apply equally to all
Edited by Earthdweller on Tuesday 11th December 16:14
LordLoveLength said:
Yes - they have repeatedly undermined the growth and stability pact and Brussels did damn all about it...
They couldn't. In 2005 France and Germany forced through a change to the Stability and Growth pact which removed the penalties for breaking the '3 and 60' rule allowing them to ignore it which suited them at the time. After that every country in the Euro broke the pact (except poor old Finland), leading inexorably to the sovereign debt crisis in 2010...Drove from Calais to Paris and back today.
French TV on the ferry over was predicting "Black Tuesday" of protests.
Went deep into the city centre, around the Arc de Triomphe etc.
Never saw anything untoward. No yellow vests, no signs of riot damage, nowt.
All appeared perfectly normal.
French TV on the ferry over was predicting "Black Tuesday" of protests.
Went deep into the city centre, around the Arc de Triomphe etc.
Never saw anything untoward. No yellow vests, no signs of riot damage, nowt.
All appeared perfectly normal.
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