Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
Elysium said:
This is the issue, we don't know what the motivations were for either side when voting.
This is, surely, the whole point. It is the fault with the referendum question. A simple Yes/No was never enough for all the variations of wishes. Yes was straightforward: the status quo. No was a whole range of possibilities, which means that it is not possible to satisfy all those who wanted to leave if they are particular.
B'stard Child said:
If that is the case then they are far cleverer and a heck of a lot more devious than I give them credit for and that would worry me more
Reciprocating mass said:
What you don’t think governments are the epitome of devious 
Wakey wakey !
It's in the job description. Wakey wakey !It's the ones who are not devious who get nowhere.
Salmonofdoubt said:
Those who supported leave were in my view either wealthy people who can weather a storm, or the angry and disenfranchised in post industrial areas who wanted to give the PM a bloody nose because they were sold a number of lies and strawman arguments.
If that's your view then that is fine; most people appreciate that is far too simplistic.Salmonofdoubt said:
I get why those who want lower taxes and less regulation voted leave. I get why the poor and disenfranchised voted for change.
I think most people would 'get it' if it were that simple.Salmonofdoubt said:
I get why those who didn’t have any problems with the status quo voted to remain.
If someone voted to remain in the EU because...….as you posted earlier "When you’re happy with your life and don’t feel the need to ask for a change". That type of I'm alright Jack attitude is understandable but will do absolutely nothing to address why the country is severely divided. The status quo you mention is mythical. I'm sure few of the current leavers had any issue with the EEC, I certainly didn't. Things have changed, the world has changed since then and the EEC has evolved to a point where 66% of EU citizens are unhappy with where the project is going. If you continue that long term trend ( laudable idea with most people happy in the 60s and 70s, more and more concerns raised during the 80's culminating in Thatcher's Bruges Speech etc, EU membership and 'ever closer union' in the 90's, UK subsidisation of mainland EU projects at our expense during the 00s, ) the goal of ever closer union will gradually take you to a place where the member states have little localised control over their own governance. The proposed closure of embassies, the proposed EU army, the discussion about centralised taxation, the discussions about bringing all the countries surrounding the Med into the EU are all things that were not on the table when we joined the EU. There is no status quo.Salmonofdoubt said:
I also know only one vote was for a clearly defined outcome,
See above, there is no status quo.Salmonofdoubt said:
the one with 52% opened the doors to a world of complex issues and not one person who voted leave knew what leave would look like, just what they wanted to happen. Hence when the deal on the table was published they all wailed because their ideas existed in fantasy land.
Leavers didn't know exactly what leave would look like; if remainers thought that they knew just what remain would be like then they knew little about the EU and where it is likely to take us during the next quarter of a century. Previous history tells me it is not where I want to go and it appears it is not where two thirds of the people who live in the EU want to go either.Crackie said:
Salmonofdoubt said:
Those who supported leave were in my view either wealthy people who can weather a storm, or the angry and disenfranchised in post industrial areas who wanted to give the PM a bloody nose because they were sold a number of lies and strawman arguments.
If that's your view then that is fine; most people appreciate that is far too simplistic.Salmonofdoubt said:
I get why those who want lower taxes and less regulation voted leave. I get why the poor and disenfranchised voted for change.
I think most people would 'get it' if it were that simple.Salmonofdoubt said:
I get why those who didn’t have any problems with the status quo voted to remain.
If someone voted to remain in the EU because...….as you posted earlier "When you’re happy with your life and don’t feel the need to ask for a change". That type of I'm alright Jack attitude is understandable but will do absolutely nothing to address why the country is severely divided. The status quo you mention is mythical. I'm sure few of the current leavers had any issue with the EEC, I certainly didn't. Things have changed, the world has changed since then and the EEC has evolved to a point where 66% of EU citizens are unhappy with where the project is going. If you continue that long term trend ( laudable idea with most people happy in the 60s and 70s, more and more concerns raised during the 80's culminating in Thatcher's Bruges Speech etc, EU membership and 'ever closer union' in the 90's, UK subsidisation of mainland EU projects at our expense during the 00s, ) the goal of ever closer union will gradually take you to a place where the member states have little localised control over their own governance. The proposed closure of embassies, the proposed EU army, the discussion about centralised taxation, the discussions about bringing all the countries surrounding the Med into the EU are all things that were not on the table when we joined the EU. There is no status quo.Salmonofdoubt said:
I also know only one vote was for a clearly defined outcome,
See above, there is no status quo.Salmonofdoubt said:
the one with 52% opened the doors to a world of complex issues and not one person who voted leave knew what leave would look like, just what they wanted to happen. Hence when the deal on the table was published they all wailed because their ideas existed in fantasy land.
Leavers didn't know exactly what leave would look like; if remainers thought that they knew just what remain would be like then they knew little about the EU and where it is likely to take us during the next quarter of a century. Previous history tells me it is not where I want to go and it appears it is not where two thirds of the people who live in the EU want to go either.Derek Smith said:
Elysium said:
This is the issue, we don't know what the motivations were for either side when voting.
This is, surely, the whole point. It is the fault with the referendum question. A simple Yes/No was never enough for all the variations of wishes. Yes was straightforward: the status quo. No was a whole range of possibilities, which means that it is not possible to satisfy all those who wanted to leave if they are particular.
If you have decided to leave you leave, it is as simple as that what you do afterwards you then decide amongst yourselves...May be the next club will be better, may be it will be worse the thing is if you stand in the doorway all you do is p
s off the majority who wanted to go somewhere else...NoNeed said:
what we have is NOT what leave looks like, it's what the powers that be want us to think it looks like
This is the crux of the problem. nobody knows what Brexit looks like because it’s something that hasn’t happened before.The government who don’t want to leave are forced to negotiate leave when leave isn’t actually defined and how it’s done is unprecedented and not defined either.
People all voted remain and leave for different reasons and all have different ideas of what Brexit looks like, so basically anyone can say anything about leave and remain voters and it will just be vague generalisations.
Reciprocating mass said:
What you don’t think governments are the epitome of devious Wakey wakey !
Oh I do think they are devious.......... Wakey wakey !I just cannot believe that this whole process was planned from the start to get us to a position where the only option is the one a majority of the UK (who voted) said no to
B'stard Child said:
Oh I do think they are devious..........
I just cannot believe that this whole process was planned from the start to get us to a position where the only option is the one a majority of the UK (who voted) said no to
2 years ago my 85 year old neighbour said "there is no way this lot will let us leave they will find a way to stay in" it is difficult at this stage to say he was wrongI just cannot believe that this whole process was planned from the start to get us to a position where the only option is the one a majority of the UK (who voted) said no to
Edited by johnxjsc1985 on Sunday 16th December 12:54
Another referendum will be close with a small margin not giving the winners the authority they desire and another GE will probably produce another minority Government. We seem to have reached a stalemate with no clear option to get us out of it.
We certainly don't have leaders who can carry support needed .
We certainly don't have leaders who can carry support needed .
Vanden Saab said:
Oh FFS its not difficult... you are at a nightclub, You paid £100 to get in, the drinks are expensive, the music is a bit crap but now and again they put some music on you have asked for and 3/4 of the other people there keep expecting you to buy their drinks for them… The majority decide to leave. The one thing you don't do is what May is suggesting which is to stand outside in the rain still buying the expensive drinks for the whole club but having no say in what music is played.
If you have decided to leave you leave, it is as simple as that what you do afterwards you then decide amongst yourselves...May be the next club will be better, may be it will be worse the thing is if you stand in the doorway all you do is ps off the majority who wanted to go somewhere else...
Very interesting. However, my clubbing days are long gone.If you have decided to leave you leave, it is as simple as that what you do afterwards you then decide amongst yourselves...May be the next club will be better, may be it will be worse the thing is if you stand in the doorway all you do is p
s off the majority who wanted to go somewhere else...How about this for an analogy:
There's a vote with one concrete option and another which varies according to whom you listen to. The poster boys of one side promise all sorts of different options, just as if the range will be decided later. This is then forgotten by those who want one particular option.
That's a much better analogy, and doesn't require specific weather conditions, probably because it is much more accurate.
Quite plainly, there was no suggestion that there was only every going to be one option. If there was, then it might just as easily been similar to Norway's or Iceland's.
Derek Smith said:
Very interesting. However, my clubbing days are long gone.
How about this for an analogy:
There's a vote with one concrete option and another which varies according to whom you listen to. The poster boys of one side promise all sorts of different options, just as if the range will be decided later. This is then forgotten by those who want one particular option.
That's a much better analogy, and doesn't require specific weather conditions, probably because it is much more accurate.
Quite plainly, there was no suggestion that there was only every going to be one option. If there was, then it might just as easily been similar to Norway's or Iceland's.
Concrete option? How about this for an analogy:
There's a vote with one concrete option and another which varies according to whom you listen to. The poster boys of one side promise all sorts of different options, just as if the range will be decided later. This is then forgotten by those who want one particular option.
That's a much better analogy, and doesn't require specific weather conditions, probably because it is much more accurate.
Quite plainly, there was no suggestion that there was only every going to be one option. If there was, then it might just as easily been similar to Norway's or Iceland's.
You have no clue what will happen with the EU in 10 years time.
The only definite was "Leave the EU".
Yeah lots of people had different reasons for wanting out, but out was what the vote was for.
We just truly need leave and not this half arsed remain with no say, that is not 'leaving the EU".
gizlaroc said:
Concrete option?
You have no clue what will happen with the EU in 10 years time.
The only definite was "Leave the EU".
Yeah lots of people had different reasons for wanting out, but out was what the vote was for.
We just truly need leave and not this half arsed remain with no say, that is not 'leaving the EU".
The Prime Minister has offered a version of Brexit. Therefore, you clearly have a Brexit. It might not be your preferred Brexit but as you state, the vote wasn't for your preferred Brexit, it was to Leave. You need to get behind your Prima Minister and show support, especially if you voted tory at the last General Election. You have no clue what will happen with the EU in 10 years time.
The only definite was "Leave the EU".
Yeah lots of people had different reasons for wanting out, but out was what the vote was for.
We just truly need leave and not this half arsed remain with no say, that is not 'leaving the EU".
You can't always have your cake and eat it, donncha no.
Piha said:
The Prime Minister has offered a version of Brexit. Therefore, you clearly have a Brexit. It might not be your preferred Brexit but as you state, the vote wasn't for your preferred Brexit, it was to Leave. You need to get behind your Prima Minister and show support, especially if you voted tory at the last General Election.
You can't always have your cake and eat it, donncha no.
Its the MP's that need to get behind May, that aint happening. You can't always have your cake and eat it, donncha no.
Exactly. I'm not a fan of the May deal it is naïve. From day one of HER negotiations she has assumed being friendly with the EU will yield a fair deal. They have simply not played that game and I'm afraid they will force us into the backstop and squeeze every concession they can before 'letting us out' such as access to fishing rights, Gibraltar etc. It is the MPs that have the power in their hands not Brexit (or any) voters. Clearly her deal will be rejected. Believing the EU will be kind and fair to us during future trade talks is a joke. We have negotiated weakly thanks to May and the EU have exploited it. Not helped by 2.5 years of vocal remain voters trying to overturn the referendum decision at every turn, do people think the EU don't see this? It empowers them to play hardball.
Piha said:
The Prime Minister has offered a version of Brexit. Therefore, you clearly have a Brexit. It might not be your preferred Brexit but as you state, the vote wasn't for your preferred Brexit, it was to Leave. You need to get behind your Prima Minister and show support, especially if you voted tory at the last General Election.
You can't always have your cake and eat it, donncha no.
No she hasn't.You can't always have your cake and eat it, donncha no.
That is not Brexit at all, it is not leaving.
NoNeed said:
jsf said:
Its the MP's that need to get behind May, that aint happening.
The fact that further voting is required is proof that parliament has never intended to let May leaveRemember, that's the thing you voted for, our Parliament making the decisions that affect us rather than the EU.
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