Theresa May (Vol.2)

[gizlaroc]

Variomatic said:

And the message from the leave campaign when they said that was that it was all part of Project Fear and the EU would be falling over itself to continue trading on the same terms.

Now that's been shown to be entirely wrong (as remainers warned at the time) it's suddenly somehow the remainers' fault. You won, get over it.

It doesn't matter who said it, I was simply saying that one of the main things that was told over and over again from both sides, albeit one saying it was a positive and the other negative, was the fact we would be leaving the single market, allowing us to do our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

I was simply saying that without that being part of leaving trying to say that it is a Brexit people voted for is a bit of a nonsense.

[saaby93]

davepoth said:

saaby93 said:

On March 29th, deal or no deal, the UK leaves the single market and the customs union
Why do you want to chase your tail about it?

Under the terms of the deal we don't leave the single market or customs union until the end of the transition period. It's in the preamble, but I'm sure you already knew that.

the withdrawal deal said:

CONSIDERING that it is in the interest of both the Union and the United Kingdom to determine a transition or implementation period during which – notwithstanding all consequences of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union as regards the United Kingdom's participation in the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union, in particular the end, on the date of entry into force of this Agreement, of the mandates of all members of institutions, bodies and agencies of the Union nominated, appointed or elected in relation to the United Kingdom's membership of the Union – Union law , including international agreements, should be applicable to and in the United Kingdom, and, as a general rule, with the same effect as regards the Member States, in order to avoid disruption in the period during which the agreement(s) on the future relationship will be negotiated

Isnt that saying that the deal, those arrangements as a general rule with the same effect?
The UK has still left on the 29th
That's what youd expect a trade deal to do
ok it is transitional but even at the end of it, a further trade deal is expected to be pretty similar

Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 16th December 22:53

[Variomatic]

gizlaroc said:

It doesn't matter who said it, I was simply saying that one of the main things that was told over and over again from both sides, albeit one saying it was a positive and the other negative, was the fact we would be leaving the single market, allowing us to do our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

I was simply saying that without that being part of leaving trying to say that it is a Brexit people voted for is a bit of a nonsense.

Except that the leavers saying that were also saying that the EU would be falling over us to trade on the same terms. When it was pointed out that no, they wouldn't if we were out of the customs union, we were told it was Project Fear and of course they would.

Many people voting leave really believed that because far more important, posh, and intelligent people like Mr Johnson & Jonson and Mr Fleeced-Moggy kept saying it and it played to their belief in British superiority and importance. Now the reality (that "Project fear" was absolutely right on at least this point) is hitting home, so many of those leave voters are NOT getting "what they voted for".

Granted, it's their own stupid fault for listening to people like Boris in the fist place, but the fact remains that what we're looking like getting - either locked in but without a voice at the table, or a hard, no deal, out, is NOT what they voted for.

[Roboraver]

Variomatic said:

Except that the leavers saying that were also saying that the EU would be falling over us to trade on the same terms. When it was pointed out that no, they wouldn't if we were out of the customs union, we were told it was Project Fear and of course they would.

Many people voting leave really believed that because far more important, posh, and intelligent people like Mr Johnson & Jonson and Mr Fleeced-Moggy kept saying it and it played to their belief in British superiority and importance. Now the reality (that "Project fear" was absolutely right on at least this point) is hitting home, so many of those leave voters are NOT getting "what they voted for".

Granted, it's their own stupid fault for listening to people like Boris in the fist place, but the fact remains that what we're looking like getting - either locked in but without a voice at the table, or a hard, no deal, out, is NOT what they voted for.

+1

"but the fact remains that what we're looking like getting - either locked in but without a voice at the table, or a hard, no deal, out, is NOT what they voted for"

[saaby93]

gizlaroc said:

It doesn't matter who said it, I was simply saying that one of the main things that was told over and over again from both sides, albeit one saying it was a positive and the other negative, was the fact we would be leaving the single market, allowing us to do our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

I was simply saying that without that being part of leaving trying to say that it is a Brexit people voted for is a bit of a nonsense.

the plan is the UK will be doing its own trade deals, including with the EU
Again youre arguing as though something isnt happening, then arguing against what youve just said
No one said the trade deals with the rest of the world would happen straight away
The deal is doing what you want if you give it the time to work out what its doing

[davepoth]

saaby93 said:

Isnt that saying that the deal, those arrangements as a general rule with the same effect?
The UK has still left on the 29th

No, it's saying that Union Law should apply. We remain in the Customs Union and Single Market for the transition period.

[saaby93]

davepoth said:

saaby93 said:

Isnt that saying that the deal, those arrangements as a general rule with the same effect?
The UK has still left on the 29th

No, it's saying that Union Law should apply. We remain in the Customs Union and Single Market for the transition period.

Youd have to get the semanticists onto it to have an argument with themselves but it looks from here that the deal 'in general has the same affect as'
It doesnt look like the word remain is there

[gizlaroc]

Variomatic said:

Except that the leavers saying that were also saying that the EU would be falling over us to trade on the same terms. When it was pointed out that no, they wouldn't if we were out of the customs union, we were told it was Project Fear and of course they would.

Many people voting leave really believed that because far more important, posh, and intelligent people like Mr Johnson & Jonson and Mr Fleeced-Moggy kept saying it and it played to their belief in British superiority and importance. Now the reality (that "Project fear" was absolutely right on at least this point) is hitting home, so many of those leave voters are NOT getting "what they voted for".

Granted, it's their own stupid fault for listening to people like Boris in the fist place, but the fact remains that what we're looking like getting - either locked in but without a voice at the table, or a hard, no deal, out, is NOT what they voted for.

You have to remember there are still plenty who think being tied into the EU for trade and not allowing yourself to strike new deals is just as stupid.


I can see it from both sides.

In my business, it would be far better financially to be out of both and negotiate free trade deals with places like India.
Not for me personally, but for the industry.

Edited by gizlaroc on Sunday 16th December 23:16

[saaby93]

gizlaroc said:

You have to remember there are still plenty who think being tied into the EU for trade and not allowing yourself to strike new deals is just as stupid.
I can see it from both sides.

In my business, it would be far better financially to be out of both and negotiate free trade deals with places like India.
Not for me personally, but for the industry.

Which is why the deal gives what industry is asking
Youre tying yourself in knots - youre right your first sentence is stupid, but its what youve written!

[anonymous-user]

Variomatic said:

And the message from the leave campaign when they said that was that it was all part of Project Fear

Nope, both sides said leaving the EU meant leaving the SM and CU, it's one of the few things they agreed on.

To now spin that's not what leaving the EU means is taking a gamble on the public having no access to the internet or no memory.

You simply cant get away with that level of bullst anymore in the modern age of communication.

[gizlaroc]

saaby93 said:

he plan is the UK will be doing its own trade deals, including with the EU
Again youre arguing as though something isnt happening, then arguing against what youve just said
No one said the trade deals with the rest of the world would happen straight away
The deal is doing what you want if you give it the time to work out what its doing

Hold on a minute, you're still missing the point, and I don't mean that as a negative, I mean your missing the point of why I was saying it.

I was simply responding to the following....

Piha said:

As you state, the vote was to Leave. There was no vote on what that Leave looked like in the referendum. If you disagree then please show us where it is clearly shown in the referendum.

I was saying one of the things that was clear during the referendum, as it came from both sides, was to leave we would be leaving the single market and custom union, for better or for worse.

[gizlaroc]

saaby93 said:

Youre tying yourself in knots - youre right your first sentence is stupid, but its what youve written!

You just have to try and be a smarmy ass don't you?

Your point blank refusal to see other people may have a different opinion or need to your own really does let you down and is the reason so many switch off from what you write, which often actually has some merit.

[Variomatic]

jsf said:

Nope, both sides said leaving the EU meant leaving the SM and CU, it's one of the few things they agreed on.

To now spin that's not what leaving the EU means is taking a gamble on the public having no access to the internet or no memory.

You simply cant get away with that level of bullst anymore in the modern age of communication.

I didn't at any point claim that Leave didn't say that if you'd bothered to comprehend rather than just rushing to post and contradict.

But the Leave campaigns also assured everyone that leaving the CU and SM wouldn't make any difference because the EU would be begging us to trade on the same terms (or even better ffs!) from outside the CU and SM.

THAT was why they said that warnings about leaving those arrangements were just part of "project fear" and no cause for alarm in the real world. To claim otherwise is to take a gamble that people have no access to the internet or memory.

Those claims about future easy trade were patent bullst at the time and, 2 1/2 years later, have been show to be such without any shadow of a doubt.

[saaby93]

gizlaroc said:

saaby93 said:

he plan is the UK will be doing its own trade deals, including with the EU
Again youre arguing as though something isnt happening, then arguing against what youve just said
No one said the trade deals with the rest of the world would happen straight away
The deal is doing what you want if you give it the time to work out what its doing

Hold on a minute, you're still missing the point, and I don't mean that as a negative, I mean your missing the point of why I was saying it.

I was simply responding to the following....

Piha said:

As you state, the vote was to Leave. There was no vote on what that Leave looked like in the referendum. If you disagree then please show us where it is clearly shown in the referendum.

I was saying one of the things that was clear during the referendum, as it came from both sides, was to leave we would be leaving the single market and custom union, for better or for worse.

You're both right

There was no vote on what leave looked like and the UK will be leaving the single market and the customs union on 29th March, deal or no deal
(Unless something untoward happens mean time!)

If the deal happens, for the benefit of business and borders, customs arrangements will generally have the same effect as now,

Edited by saaby93 on Monday 17th December 00:02

[CaptainSlow]

Variomatic said:

Those claims about future easy trade were patent bullst at the time and, 2 1/2 years later, have been show to be such without any shadow of a doubt.

No we haven't. All we've been shown is that May has said one thing and done another.

[anonymous-user]

We keep hearing what leave voters don't want.

What is it that they do want now?

[PurpleMoonlight]

Ghibli said:

We keep hearing what leave voters don't want.

What is it that they do want now?

To leave at 11.00 pm on 29/03/2019.

[anonymous-user]

PurpleMoonlight said:

To leave at 11.00 pm on 29/03/2019.

Isn't that what May intends to do.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Ghibli said:

Isn't that what May intends to do.

Certainly appears that way to me.

[powerstroke]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Ghibli said:

Isn't that what May intends to do.

Certainly appears that way to me.

Hope you guys are right , hope it's a clear leave is better than a bad deal ..