Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
esxste said:
Remain needs to be an option on the referendum.
Whenever its mentioned that Leaver voters were lied to; the common response is "Leave voters knew what they were voting for".
Which is not what was meant.
Everyone who voted Leave, or Remain, did so for their own reasons. The Leave campaigns promised much, but had no plan to deliver it. This was a deliberate strategy by them; because between them they could not come up with a coherent strategy on what they would do if they won. This lack of cohesion in what Brexit actually should be has played out over the last couple of years; and will claim yet another Tory Prime Minister as some kind of sacrificial offering.
Leave promised Sovereignty; they promised Control of Borders, they promised single market access, customs union, free trade deals, the promised a hard brexit, soft brexit. They promised that Britain could have its cake and eat it.
So what do we have;
We have hard brexiters; who believe we'd be better off out of the EU; cut all ties and start again. A minority of leave voters; presumably driven primarily by sovereignty and border concerns. They don't seem to keen on Theresa's deal, because it sacrifices so much sovereignty, possibly indefinitely.
We have the soft brexiters who back the deal, those who want out of the EU but want to minimise the economic damage.
You've got the soft brexiters who don't back the deal, who think we should remain part of single market and customs union.
So out of these, how many would rather remain than leave with Theresa's deal or go full hard brexit?
Add them to the remainers; the 48% who don't want to leave, and you may just end up with a majority of people who don't want to leave the EU now the cold hard facts of what Brexit actually will mean.
People voted for Brexit for their own reasons; and they can now see if Theresa's deal or no deal will actually deliver what they voted for. If it doesn't, they should have the option to change their mind and say "actually I'd prefer to remain; the Brexit I wanted won't be delivered"
Claiming that the 48% will vote remain again does you no favours. There are those who voted remain thinking we can leave in a few years who might vote leave. Those who voted remain thinking the world might fall in who may now vote to leave. Those who have seen how the EU has behaved towards us who may vote remain...Whenever its mentioned that Leaver voters were lied to; the common response is "Leave voters knew what they were voting for".
Which is not what was meant.
Everyone who voted Leave, or Remain, did so for their own reasons. The Leave campaigns promised much, but had no plan to deliver it. This was a deliberate strategy by them; because between them they could not come up with a coherent strategy on what they would do if they won. This lack of cohesion in what Brexit actually should be has played out over the last couple of years; and will claim yet another Tory Prime Minister as some kind of sacrificial offering.
Leave promised Sovereignty; they promised Control of Borders, they promised single market access, customs union, free trade deals, the promised a hard brexit, soft brexit. They promised that Britain could have its cake and eat it.
So what do we have;
We have hard brexiters; who believe we'd be better off out of the EU; cut all ties and start again. A minority of leave voters; presumably driven primarily by sovereignty and border concerns. They don't seem to keen on Theresa's deal, because it sacrifices so much sovereignty, possibly indefinitely.
We have the soft brexiters who back the deal, those who want out of the EU but want to minimise the economic damage.
You've got the soft brexiters who don't back the deal, who think we should remain part of single market and customs union.
So out of these, how many would rather remain than leave with Theresa's deal or go full hard brexit?
Add them to the remainers; the 48% who don't want to leave, and you may just end up with a majority of people who don't want to leave the EU now the cold hard facts of what Brexit actually will mean.
People voted for Brexit for their own reasons; and they can now see if Theresa's deal or no deal will actually deliver what they voted for. If it doesn't, they should have the option to change their mind and say "actually I'd prefer to remain; the Brexit I wanted won't be delivered"
Then there is the campaign to think about... While remain will try to concentrate on the economics, leave will be busy pointing out that we have already had a vote and we are being asked again because
A. The elite didn't like the answer
B. The EU didn't like the answer and have form for suggesting countries vote again
C. The gov. Didn't want to leave so deliberately negotiated a bad deal.
D. Democracy is being made a mockery of and your vote to leave is the only way to stop the slippery slope to a dictatorship etc.
Vanden Saab said:
esxste said:
Remain needs to be an option on the referendum.
Whenever its mentioned that Leaver voters were lied to; the common response is "Leave voters knew what they were voting for".
Which is not what was meant.
Everyone who voted Leave, or Remain, did so for their own reasons. The Leave campaigns promised much, but had no plan to deliver it. This was a deliberate strategy by them; because between them they could not come up with a coherent strategy on what they would do if they won. This lack of cohesion in what Brexit actually should be has played out over the last couple of years; and will claim yet another Tory Prime Minister as some kind of sacrificial offering.
Leave promised Sovereignty; they promised Control of Borders, they promised single market access, customs union, free trade deals, the promised a hard brexit, soft brexit. They promised that Britain could have its cake and eat it.
So what do we have;
We have hard brexiters; who believe we'd be better off out of the EU; cut all ties and start again. A minority of leave voters; presumably driven primarily by sovereignty and border concerns. They don't seem to keen on Theresa's deal, because it sacrifices so much sovereignty, possibly indefinitely.
We have the soft brexiters who back the deal, those who want out of the EU but want to minimise the economic damage.
You've got the soft brexiters who don't back the deal, who think we should remain part of single market and customs union.
So out of these, how many would rather remain than leave with Theresa's deal or go full hard brexit?
Add them to the remainers; the 48% who don't want to leave, and you may just end up with a majority of people who don't want to leave the EU now the cold hard facts of what Brexit actually will mean.
People voted for Brexit for their own reasons; and they can now see if Theresa's deal or no deal will actually deliver what they voted for. If it doesn't, they should have the option to change their mind and say "actually I'd prefer to remain; the Brexit I wanted won't be delivered"
Claiming that the 48% will vote remain again does you no favours. There are those who voted remain thinking we can leave in a few years who might vote leave. Those who voted remain thinking the world might fall in who may now vote to leave. Those who have seen how the EU has behaved towards us who may vote remain...Whenever its mentioned that Leaver voters were lied to; the common response is "Leave voters knew what they were voting for".
Which is not what was meant.
Everyone who voted Leave, or Remain, did so for their own reasons. The Leave campaigns promised much, but had no plan to deliver it. This was a deliberate strategy by them; because between them they could not come up with a coherent strategy on what they would do if they won. This lack of cohesion in what Brexit actually should be has played out over the last couple of years; and will claim yet another Tory Prime Minister as some kind of sacrificial offering.
Leave promised Sovereignty; they promised Control of Borders, they promised single market access, customs union, free trade deals, the promised a hard brexit, soft brexit. They promised that Britain could have its cake and eat it.
So what do we have;
We have hard brexiters; who believe we'd be better off out of the EU; cut all ties and start again. A minority of leave voters; presumably driven primarily by sovereignty and border concerns. They don't seem to keen on Theresa's deal, because it sacrifices so much sovereignty, possibly indefinitely.
We have the soft brexiters who back the deal, those who want out of the EU but want to minimise the economic damage.
You've got the soft brexiters who don't back the deal, who think we should remain part of single market and customs union.
So out of these, how many would rather remain than leave with Theresa's deal or go full hard brexit?
Add them to the remainers; the 48% who don't want to leave, and you may just end up with a majority of people who don't want to leave the EU now the cold hard facts of what Brexit actually will mean.
People voted for Brexit for their own reasons; and they can now see if Theresa's deal or no deal will actually deliver what they voted for. If it doesn't, they should have the option to change their mind and say "actually I'd prefer to remain; the Brexit I wanted won't be delivered"
Then there is the campaign to think about... While remain will try to concentrate on the economics, leave will be busy pointing out that we have already had a vote and we are being asked again because
A. The elite didn't like the answer
B. The EU didn't like the answer and have form for suggesting countries vote again
C. The gov. Didn't want to leave so deliberately negotiated a bad deal.
D. Democracy is being made a mockery of and your vote to leave is the only way to stop the slippery slope to a dictatorship etc.
t show and deciding to change to leave despite literally nothing positive even being discussed any more (now its 'how not-st of a deal can we get' or WTO terms) is clutching at straws in the extreme.Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Will the leaflet about the second referendum include the promise to enact the result?As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Or have we learnt that lesson?
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"PositronicRay said:
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"May not count that as 'winning' to you, but they certainly havent had their pants pulled down like we have.
p1stonhead said:
I think the thought of people seeing the last 2 years of absolute st show and deciding to change to leave despite literally nothing positive even being discussed any more (now its 'how not-st of a deal can we get' or WTO terms) is clutching at straws in the extreme.
Firstly the EU has not stood still while we have debated with ourselves. The EU army has gone from Myth to planned and the EU commission is planning to end all rebates in the next budget round.t show and deciding to change to leave despite literally nothing positive even being discussed any more (now its 'how not-st of a deal can we get' or WTO terms) is clutching at straws in the extreme.Secondly the arrogance of the Remainer elite, and how they have undermined democracy, may have put off some Remain voters.
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"May not count that as 'winning' to you, but they certainly havent had their pants pulled down like we have.
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"May not count that as 'winning' to you, but they certainly havent had their pants pulled down like we have.
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"May not count that as 'winning' to you, but they certainly havent had their pants pulled down like we have.
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
PositronicRay said:
stongle said:
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winningon every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
I don't see any "winners"May not count that as 'winning' to you, but they certainly havent had their pants pulled down like we have.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394
p1stonhead said:
An intuitive little bd our DavidBBC says
In a rare public comment on the Brexit process last week, Mr Cameron, who campaigned to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum and quit after the public voted to leave, said he supported the prime minister but was "worried" by signs that Parliament was not willing to approve her deal.
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
An intuitive little bd our DavidBBC says
In a rare public comment on the Brexit process last week, Mr Cameron, who campaigned to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum and quit after the public voted to leave, said he supported the prime minister but was "worried" by signs that Parliament was not willing to approve her deal.
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
No one is ever forced into buying the house with the defects either at the original price offered (no deal) or at the discount (TM’s deal).
Arguing that we made an unconditional offer is madness if both the seller (the EU) have said we can pull out of the purchase, and we could re-think it if we wanted (another referendum).
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 17th December 13:06
p1stonhead said:
An intuitive little bd our DavidBBC says
In a rare public comment on the Brexit process last week, Mr Cameron, who campaigned to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum and quit after the public voted to leave, said he supported the prime minister but was "worried" by signs that Parliament was not willing to approve her deal.
Elysium said:
It's not a question of 'getting the right answer'. Leaving the EU is a major change for our country, so a check before we implement it, now we know that the Govt and Parliament cannot find an acceptable 'deal' seems perfectly sensible.
So what does a 'check' imply? Does Joe Public get to proof read the script for typos?? Pull the other one...A second referendum is ONLY being promoted by remainers, in the hope that the first will get overturned. And they know it.
What little 'faith' people have in the political process & politicians, will almost certainly evaporate - this is far more dangerous than the economic argument over Brexit, whether we are in for the doom of 'project fear' or a minor blip, assuming no deal.
Elysium said:
It's not a question of 'getting the right answer'. Leaving the EU is a major change for our country, so a check before we implement it, now we know that the Govt and Parliament cannot find an acceptable 'deal' seems perfectly sensible.
We dont know they cant find an acceptable deal.The deal on the table may well be acceptable
The 200:117 vote last week was some sort of indicator
If the other parties are similarly split, it carries and we can move on
Biker 1 said:
Elysium said:
It's not a question of 'getting the right answer'. Leaving the EU is a major change for our country, so a check before we implement it, now we know that the Govt and Parliament cannot find an acceptable 'deal' seems perfectly sensible.
So what does a 'check' imply? Does Joe Public get to proof read the script for typos?? Pull the other one...A second referendum is ONLY being promoted by remainers, in the hope that the first will get overturned. And they know it.
FWIW i don’t think anyone really wants another referendum (I certainly don’t), but something needs to be done to break the deadlock. What else?
p1stonhead said:
This is getting surreal. It's like getting advice on alarm systems from The Boy Who Cried Wolf.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff