Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
PositronicRay said:
p1stonhead said:
An intuitive little b
d our DavidBBC says
In a rare public comment on the Brexit process last week, Mr Cameron, who campaigned to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum and quit after the public voted to leave, said he supported the prime minister but was "worried" by signs that Parliament was not willing to approve her deal.
Something he lacked in Feb 2016 when he made no plans for a Leave vote and told the CS not to make any plans, quite clearly because a Leave vote was never going to materialise in his mind, backed up by his statement that what ever the result (it would never be leave) he would be there to see it through whatever the result.
Just how long was it between the official result being announced and the door of No10 catching Cameron's backside as he returned inside after resigning?
No deal was always going to be the correct deal.
Once both sides accept this and start to prepare for it happening, then it can and will be a smooth(ish) no deal.
But that won't be allowed to happen.
It will be May's deal that eventually gets through, with a promise not to use the backstop without further negotiations.
Once both sides accept this and start to prepare for it happening, then it can and will be a smooth(ish) no deal.
But that won't be allowed to happen.
It will be May's deal that eventually gets through, with a promise not to use the backstop without further negotiations.
PositronicRay said:
I was taught to aim for a "win win" this was never going to be achieved IMO. Seeing Brexit as winning/losing strategy is sad.
As was I (JPM grad scheme by any chance?)....Anyway, i use win in loose terms for forum brevity.
The deal on offer is worse than remain or leave so should be abondoned, as you later say its lose / lose.
The problem is govt as its stands cannot take a leave forward, we have to have a coherent strategy outside the EU and none has been forth coming. That lack of vision (whatever it maybe), kills private sector investment in the economy (which is on its knees).
The Tories would have to do fiscal spend (against doctrine) AND might have a chance of pulling it off . A Corbyn led govt, with crazy economic policies sees us downgraded and on a fast train to Venezuala status. I fear we are heading for an existential crisis through political ineptitude and basic selfishness.
Even if today she dumps the bill, or puts it to the parliamentary test and it fails - maybe they start working on post Brexit reality, properly. They can outline tax plans, investment (there is money available and we can still borrow), tarrifs on imports baiscally this will become the harsh reality the EU faces of the poor offer. Basically protectionist policy almost Trumpian.....
Edited by stongle on Monday 17th December 13:23
Edited by stongle on Monday 17th December 13:24
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
Now apply that logic to the Brexit referendum.
Vanden Saab said:
Claiming that the 48% will vote remain again does you no favours. There are those who voted remain thinking we can leave in a few years who might vote leave. Those who voted remain thinking the world might fall in who may now vote to leave.
Wishful thinking upon your part. Vanden Saab said:
Those who have seen how the EU has behaved towards us who may vote remain...
Then there is the campaign to think about... While remain will try to concentrate on the economics, leave will be busy pointing out that we have already had a vote and we are being asked again because
A. The elite didn't like the answer
B. The EU didn't like the answer and have form for suggesting countries vote again
C. The gov. Didn't want to leave so deliberately negotiated a bad deal.
D. Democracy is being made a mockery of and your vote to leave is the only way to stop the slippery slope to a dictatorship etc.
Given that for years the EU was painted as the boogeyman who rained on everyones' parade, it shouldn't have come as any surprise that the EU would roll over and offer its tummy up for a rub while giving us everything we wanted. But they haven't even acted unreasonably. They published their negotiating strategy in advance of the negotiations; agreed amongst themselves what they would and would not accept; and waited... and waited for the British Government to decide what the hell it wanted. David Davis turned up to the first negotiating session without any notes, while the EU negotiators were sat there with piles of paper around them. Then there is the campaign to think about... While remain will try to concentrate on the economics, leave will be busy pointing out that we have already had a vote and we are being asked again because
A. The elite didn't like the answer
B. The EU didn't like the answer and have form for suggesting countries vote again
C. The gov. Didn't want to leave so deliberately negotiated a bad deal.
D. Democracy is being made a mockery of and your vote to leave is the only way to stop the slippery slope to a dictatorship etc.
A. Elites like Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, et al who've all taken steps to move their investments out of Britain? There's 'elites' on both sides. Suggesting its what the elites want neglects the reality that Brexit will cause economic hardship to the working classes.
B. The EU want Britain to remain in the EU and always have; so of course they'd like a democratic decision to stay after all.
C. Hard to argue with that when Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox, along with a whole host of other Brexiters were put into key positions to enact Brexit. May called a General Election, trying to marginalise the ERG; and ended up empowering them. She then had to walk a tightrope on trying to deliver a deal that minimises economic damage, and leaves the Tory party with some hope of ever getting in again, and pleasing the unpleasable ERG.
Suggesting it was a deliberate thing to negotiate a bad deal requires taking leave of logical thought.
D. Asking people to vote on something is not mocking democracy. It is democracy. The EU is not a dictatorship, and it is other a gross lack of knowledge or outright dishonesty to suggest it is.
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
amusingduck said:
Scotland voting to stay in the UK means that they accepted the risk of the UK voting to leave the EU later on, thus no need for another vote. Is that correct?
Now apply that logic to the Brexit referendum.
Except Scotland was told that they needed to stay in the UK to enjoy EU membership. Now apply that logic to the Brexit referendum.
Nobody told them the UK was going to have a referendum on the Leaving the EU in a couple of years.
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
Guardian March 2017 said:
Why is the first minister doing this?
Sturgeon argued that last year’s Scottish National party election manifesto gives her a mandate to press for a new independence vote if “a significant or material change” in Scotland’s constitutional position occurred, such as the rest of the UK voting to leave the EU while Scotland voted to stay.
Sturgeon argued that last year’s Scottish National party election manifesto gives her a mandate to press for a new independence vote if “a significant or material change” in Scotland’s constitutional position occurred, such as the rest of the UK voting to leave the EU while Scotland voted to stay.
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
don'tbesilly said:
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
amusingduck said:
p1stonhead said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
ash73 said:
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Should we also repeat the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, or did we already get the "right" answer on that one? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Perhaps we should hold one on Irish reunification too, it would make Brexit easier. They might be against it initially, but let's just try a few different questions until they get it right.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, then your attempt to draw a parallel might be reasonable. However, they voted for the status quo. No risk of cutting in the wrong place then.
Guardian March 2017 said:
Why is the first minister doing this?
Sturgeon argued that last year’s Scottish National party election manifesto gives her a mandate to press for a new independence vote if “a significant or material change” in Scotland’s constitutional position occurred, such as the rest of the UK voting to leave the EU while Scotland voted to stay.
Sturgeon argued that last year’s Scottish National party election manifesto gives her a mandate to press for a new independence vote if “a significant or material change” in Scotland’s constitutional position occurred, such as the rest of the UK voting to leave the EU while Scotland voted to stay.
esxste said:
amusingduck said:
Scotland voting to stay in the UK means that they accepted the risk of the UK voting to leave the EU later on, thus no need for another vote. Is that correct?
Now apply that logic to the Brexit referendum.
Except Scotland was told that they needed to stay in the UK to enjoy EU membership. Now apply that logic to the Brexit referendum.
Nobody told them the UK was going to have a referendum on the Leaving the EU in a couple of years.
Cameron one year before the IndyRef said:
In a long awaited speech Prime Minister David Cameron says that if the Conservatives win the next election they would seek to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give the British people the "simple choice" by the end of 2017 between staying in the EU under those terms or leaving the EU
Anyhow, my point is mainly that saying the UK should have another referendum but Scotland can't is the shonkiest of logic.Interesting stat today on radio: 1m leave voters have left the planet in the last 2 years and 1m younger generation are now eligible to vote
I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
Murph7355 said:
stongle said:
....She has to consider another public vote; but force people to vote (as mandatory as possible).
Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
You can't force people to vote. Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
Murph7355 said:
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
I can just about understand how some people might've been naive enough to think that there was a slight chance of getting to a sensible FTA, but surely nobody in their right mind could possibly believe that it was ever going to be straightforward?!?!?
Sure, if you considered things from a purely economic standpoint, then yes, maybe it should've been straightforward, but surely if the EU was just about the economics, we wouldn't be leaving in the first place?
The only real red line the EU negotiators had was "make sure that the UK gets a bad enough deal that nobody else will want to follow them out of the exit"! In what world could that possibly align with getting a straightforward trade agreement?
kurt535 said:
Interesting stat today on radio: 1m leave voters have left the planet in the last 2 years and 1m younger generation are now eligible to vote
I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
The examples of such are where?I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
kurt535 said:
Interesting stat today on radio: 1m leave voters have left the planet in the last 2 years and 1m younger generation are now eligible to vote
I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
Presumably this is assuming old people are all leavers (and I appreciate the stats show this)?I can see why brexit voters always get angry and fundamentally scared at May calling a 2nd referendum.
Also, why do brexit voters always threaten violence if the vote is overturned???
It definitely wont be that clear cut.
Kermit power said:
The only real red line the EU negotiators had was "make sure that the UK gets a bad enough deal that nobody else will want to follow them out of the exit"! In what world could that possibly align with getting a straightforward trade agreement?
the UK isnt the easiest set up to leave the EU due to the Ireland border issueIf say France were to leave it would be a much cleaner split
Mind you when Greenland left they didnt find it as easy as they thought
https://www.politico.eu/article/greenland-exit-war...
saaby93 said:
Kermit power said:
The only real red line the EU negotiators had was "make sure that the UK gets a bad enough deal that nobody else will want to follow them out of the exit"! In what world could that possibly align with getting a straightforward trade agreement?
the UK isnt the easiest set up to leave the EU due to the Ireland border issueIf say France were to leave it would be a much cleaner split
Mind you when Greenland left they didnt find it as easy as they thought
https://www.politico.eu/article/greenland-exit-war...
The only way this world have been simple is if NI didn’t exist and we were a proper island.
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