Theresa May (Vol.2)

[Previous]

The bbc earlier had a piece outlining 6 potential ways forward, though 4 of those (can't remember them all but included try again on her deal..) seemed to only end up at party bickering, which leaves only no deal or second vote.

I can see this ending in no deal by default (which I think would be okay, after the initial shock and associated nonsense is sorted out).

Personally, I'd support a second vote so long as, seeing as remain MPs are so keen to give away powers to Brussels, that the remain option went the while hog: Sack off all the MP's and lords, and just jave*MEP's as part of the new supersate.

Edit:

• "Jave" was suppsed to read "have" - though in the spirit of European integration happy to read it with a Spanish tongue...

Edited by Previous on Wednesday 16th January 23:09

[Troubleatmill]

Roboraver said:

Gove can go jump, only a snake.

Not much gets me cross but I am fuming after watching that.

HOW DARE she stand there smirking, and witheringly saying she is disappointed that Labour didn’t come to her ‘open door’.

Has it been open for the last two and a half years then you DISGUSTING wretch?

The sheer brass neck of her, lording it with vomitous levels of smuggery after being completely crushed in the vote last night. Has she no shame whatsoever?

She is beneath contempt, and in my view a dangerous maladjust in need of psychiatric help.

To be fair - The Labour Leader and uncle Tom Cobly and all Labour MP's that have had a sniff of being on the telly have repeatedly asked for the PM to open the door.
She just did.
Corbyn bailed.

Labour can't have it both ways fella. If you are vocally pushing for a seat at the table, when it is (finally) offered to you - sticking 2 figures up at it make you look like a cock.

Corbyn should have gone . But I think the new ahole that Gove tore him - means he was stting himself twice as much as normal.

[cherryowen]

S1KRR said:

dangerousB said:

bhstewie said:

I've just watched the full thing.

He fking sliced and diced Corbyn there, loved the look on his face when the camera switched to him not sure there was much "gentler politics" going through his mind.

I feel sorry for Tom Watson, must be difficult to keep a straight face.

Totally agree - even if you don't like him, you cannot say that wasn't a masterclass.

For anyone that didn't watch it, well worth just over 11 minutes of your time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqvzVblbsA

Oh, that's an excellent application for PM after all!

He might just pull it out and surprise us!

Not quite as good as Hilary Benn's "Syria" speech, but very robust nonetheless. You could tell by his face when he stepped up to the dispatch box he was in fighting mode, and I've never seen any politician pace back and fore at the box when delivering a speech.

Colour me impressed.

[kev1974]

Roboraver said:

Gove can go jump, only a snake.

Not much gets me cross but I am fuming after watching that.

HOW DARE she stand there smirking, and witheringly saying she is disappointed that Labour didn’t come to her ‘open door’.

Has it been open for the last two and a half years then you DISGUSTING wretch?

The sheer brass neck of her, lording it with vomitous levels of smuggery after being completely crushed in the vote last night. Has she no shame whatsoever?

She is beneath contempt, and in my view a dangerous maladjust in need of psychiatric help.

Now it just looks like Corbyn has just been bluffing for those two and a half years, when she's finally got around to calling his bluff he's apparently got nothing to say and has run off and hid

[Wiccan of Darkness]

dangerousB said:

bhstewie said:

I've just watched the full thing.

He fking sliced and diced Corbyn there, loved the look on his face when the camera switched to him not sure there was much "gentler politics" going through his mind.

I feel sorry for Tom Watson, must be difficult to keep a straight face.

Totally agree - even if you don't like him, you cannot say that wasn't a masterclass.

For anyone that didn't watch it, well worth just over 11 minutes of your time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqvzVblbsA

Thanks for posting the link. That was one hell of a speech.

A very interesting one, too. Gove has shown that he is quite the orator, appearing statesmanlike and capable. I've always seen him as snakey and somewhat reptilian.

Theresa May is holding this poisoned chalice, brexit was always going to be toxic and her role was to create this illusion that after extensive negotiations, wrangling and a chaotic time, we were never going to be offered a good deal and the only route forward is to leave the EU with no deal. Politically in the longer term that will work out for the better, an entirely fresh cabinet, with a new PM will take us forward after we have left. Once the process is over, May will step down and Gove has shown himself to be capable of holding the premiership.

The referendum was pretty clear, remain or leave. The process for leaving and any deals struck were left to parliament, and the GE ensured we elected the MP's we wanted to undertake that process - a second referendum simply shows MP's were not up to the task they were elected for; consequently a second referendum is also a vote of no confidence in our elected MP's.

I've always thought that were I the PM, I would have ensured that all through the process, each and every MP was singing from the same hymn sheet. None of this dissent from the likes of Soubry, or calls for peoples votes, more GE's, no confidence votes and the such, it is impossible to say whether brexit or the brexit process has caused the most chaos. There was a momentous opportunity to unite the country behind a decision and move forward, but the failure to ensure MP's give the aura of a smooth process has caused great dissent. For whose benefit has this been, it sure as hell hasn't been for the benefit of the UK. The world has been watching, and the process has been uncharacteristically un-British - again to our detriment.

One of the things the UK does lead the world in, is a sense of fair play. That is why the referendum result will not be overturned, and on a world stage, any inward investment in to the UK has been met with this notion that regulatory and political frameworks will be adhered to. That is why the UK is chosen over, say Zimbabwe, or Russia, or wonderfully socialist France. Why invest in a country that will tax you to the hilt, or demand bribes, or instigate regulatory squeezes on inward investment? What will the word see if the UK ignores the referendum after all, and how does that reflect on the EU as well? Does the EU want to be seen as the monster that ensnares sovereign nations in its tentacles, and squeezes them until they choke? Invest in the UK and you know what you're getting.

Sadly, the chaotic process has tarnished that reputation and the UK can ill afford any further blemishes.

Gove, a passionate brexiteer, has shown he has what it takes to be PM in a post brexit world.

I think we will see a couple more speeches like that from Gove, further consolidating the notion of premiership.

But to watch the life and soul drain from Corbyn monoxide was utterly priceless. His next move will be a full scale political coup, driving tanks down Whitehall waving red hammer and sickle flags and hoping nobody notices the faded CCCP logo's on the gun barrels are badly camouflaged by rub-on transfers of Owen Jones as Che Guevara.

[otherman]

In 2016, Labour MPs voted 172 to 40 no confidence in Corbyn, and offered Owen Wilson as a sensible alternative. But the leader is chosen by the National Executive Committee, Union dominated, who backed Corbyn again.
They're stuck with this clueless guy, who just keeps saying Theresa has it all wrong, put me in charge. Even though he's said absolutely nothing about what he'd do.

[JagLover]

paulrockliffe said:

I think if you want to understand Gove you have to consider the massive chip he has on his shoulder after he was eviscerated by the press (for campaigning to leave) because he wasn't loyal to Cameron or Johnson. He has his principles, but he now puts loyalty to the Prime Minister above them, which has lead to inconsistencies.

Anyway, May will make a statement at 10. No idea what she'll say.

I think I can understand Gove, but no longer respect him. As you say he has learned that principles and passion in politics can just get you reviled and also at times demoted (as he was as education secretary).

Principles don't pay the bills and a big factor in him not resigning, IMO, is him not wanting the pay cut of going back to being a backbench MP.

As I said understand, because he hasn't got the moral coverage or willingness to undergo personal sacrifice, but not respect. The Tory membership agrees and he is now toward the bottom of any list of potential candidates for leadership.

[frisbee]

kev1974 said:

Now it just looks like Corbyn has just been bluffing for those two and a half years, when she's finally got around to calling his bluff he's apparently got nothing to say and has run off and hid

The government is a disaster. If labour work with them or validate them in any way then they'll only taint themselves, dictator May wouldn't allow them (or anyone) to have any meaningful input anyway.

Better to just sit back and pick up the pieces.

[Camoradi]

dazwalsh said:

Gove should have done a mic drop after that speach, tore shreds out of Corbyn.

That would have been perfect. Totally inappropriate, but perfect

[deltaevo16]

Wiccan of Darkness said:

dangerousB said:

bhstewie said:

I've just watched the full thing.

He fking sliced and diced Corbyn there, loved the look on his face when the camera switched to him not sure there was much "gentler politics" going through his mind.

I feel sorry for Tom Watson, must be difficult to keep a straight face.

Totally agree - even if you don't like him, you cannot say that wasn't a masterclass.

For anyone that didn't watch it, well worth just over 11 minutes of your time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqvzVblbsA

Thanks for posting the link. That was one hell of a speech.

A very interesting one, too. Gove has shown that he is quite the orator, appearing statesmanlike and capable. I've always seen him as snakey and somewhat reptilian.

Theresa May is holding this poisoned chalice, brexit was always going to be toxic and her role was to create this illusion that after extensive negotiations, wrangling and a chaotic time, we were never going to be offered a good deal and the only route forward is to leave the EU with no deal. Politically in the longer term that will work out for the better, an entirely fresh cabinet, with a new PM will take us forward after we have left. Once the process is over, May will step down and Gove has shown himself to be capable of holding the premiership.

The referendum was pretty clear, remain or leave. The process for leaving and any deals struck were left to parliament, and the GE ensured we elected the MP's we wanted to undertake that process - a second referendum simply shows MP's were not up to the task they were elected for; consequently a second referendum is also a vote of no confidence in our elected MP's.

I've always thought that were I the PM, I would have ensured that all through the process, each and every MP was singing from the same hymn sheet. None of this dissent from the likes of Soubry, or calls for peoples votes, more GE's, no confidence votes and the such, it is impossible to say whether brexit or the brexit process has caused the most chaos. There was a momentous opportunity to unite the country behind a decision and move forward, but the failure to ensure MP's give the aura of a smooth process has caused great dissent. For whose benefit has this been, it sure as hell hasn't been for the benefit of the UK. The world has been watching, and the process has been uncharacteristically un-British - again to our detriment.

One of the things the UK does lead the world in, is a sense of fair play. That is why the referendum result will not be overturned, and on a world stage, any inward investment in to the UK has been met with this notion that regulatory and political frameworks will be adhered to. That is why the UK is chosen over, say Zimbabwe, or Russia, or wonderfully socialist France. Why invest in a country that will tax you to the hilt, or demand bribes, or instigate regulatory squeezes on inward investment? What will the word see if the UK ignores the referendum after all, and how does that reflect on the EU as well? Does the EU want to be seen as the monster that ensnares sovereign nations in its tentacles, and squeezes them until they choke? Invest in the UK and you know what you're getting.

Sadly, the chaotic process has tarnished that reputation and the UK can ill afford any further blemishes.

Gove, a passionate brexiteer, has shown he has what it takes to be PM in a post brexit world.

I think we will see a couple more speeches like that from Gove, further consolidating the notion of premiership.

But to watch the life and soul drain from Corbyn monoxide was utterly priceless. His next move will be a full scale political coup, driving tanks down Whitehall waving red hammer and sickle flags and hoping nobody notices the faded CCCP logo's on the gun barrels are badly camouflaged by rub-on transfers of Owen Jones as Che Guevara.

Very well made points, which about sums up the way I and others feel. I knew exactly what I was voting for, and end to our relationship. The issue you mentioned has been that through months of dissent and whining about the result, where quite clearly some MP really want to overturn the result. We have ended up where our PM has tried to appease both sides. The biggest issue with May was calling the GE, with a reduced majority she has left herself open to be attacked by the likes of Soubry.

There should have been no hint of a deal, there was no mandate for a deal either. The question asked on the referendum was leave or stay. Of course it would be beneficial to be an active trading partner with the EU as well as the ROW. The issue is for me the PM went in to the game of poker with the EU, and showed her hand, despite the promises she made over several months about no deal was better etc. The EU plainly saw the dissent in Parliament, along with the majority of the media who have wanted to change the result, and they have fed off this.

If the PM had a larger majority to play with, I think she could have easily silenced the remainers in her party. The PM in my view has always been a fence sitter, and never one who could be really be tested in political combat. Her trust in a cabal of advisors who wrongly advised her on a GE. The fact that she came up with this plan, that would clearly pee the DUP off, shows to me that she has no real political nous.

Would Gove after the speech yesterday, be the one to take us forward?

[Hayek]

Vaud said:

Elysium said:

bhstewie said:

SpeckledJim said:

He's fiercely bright, canny and witty. A bit like William Hague, but with a lot of added Machiavellian cunning, venom, and spite!

We could do a lot worse than have him as PM. He's a villain, but I think he's clever enough that his ego aligns the nation's benefit broadly with his measurement of personal success. (but not entirely!)

He runs rings round May as a parliamentary operator, IMO.

He's slippery as an eel but I do like him.

It's so confusing

God almighty no. Another thread tainted by Gove love.

He would sell the country off for parts.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-h...

There is a key difference between liking Gove and admiring a well delivered speech.

Gordon Brown gave a great speech on the importance of the Scottish union. I didn't like him as a politician but it was a masterpiece of oration. As was Robin Cook's resignation speech - or Geoffrey Howe's... or Hilary Benns on Syria.

Gove delivered a well timed, impactful and well executed speech. Rousing.

Add George Galloway vs the US Senate to that list.

[techguyone]

Chicken Chaser said:

Agreed.

She's a danger to the future of this country but refuses to budge. I wish there was a credible opposition to challenge her but it appears that the Labour Party are throttled by their own grass roots and the Tories were too weak to put her up against a challenge.

Timing. It's all about timing in politics.

Everyone knows that brexit is the poisoned chalice, they've got a 'useful idiot' drinking it. You'll see all the contenders popping out of the woodwork once Brexit (however it ends up) is done.

You'll notice that no one will want to be seen to be too closely associated with May as they know they too will be axed when the time is right.

Until Corbyn is moved out, it wouldn't matter if a monkey was in No 10, the presiding party is safe and they know it. It's up to Labour now to make the needed changes or they'll be outside looking in for a very long time.

[Mark Benson]

deltaevo16 said:

Very well made points, which about sums up the way I and others feel. I knew exactly what I was voting for, and end to our relationship. The issue you mentioned has been that through months of dissent and whining about the result, where quite clearly some MP really want to overturn the result. We have ended up where our PM has tried to appease both sides. The biggest issue with May was calling the GE, with a reduced majority she has left herself open to be attacked by the likes of Soubry.

There should have been no hint of a deal, there was no mandate for a deal either. The question asked on the referendum was leave or stay. Of course it would be beneficial to be an active trading partner with the EU as well as the ROW. The issue is for me the PM went in to the game of poker with the EU, and showed her hand, despite the promises she made over several months about no deal was better etc. The EU plainly saw the dissent in Parliament, along with the majority of the media who have wanted to change the result, and they have fed off this.

If the PM had a larger majority to play with, I think she could have easily silenced the remainers in her party. The PM in my view has always been a fence sitter, and never one who could be really be tested in political combat. Her trust in a cabal of advisors who wrongly advised her on a GE. The fact that she came up with this plan, that would clearly pee the DUP off, shows to me that she has no real political nous.

Would Gove after the speech yesterday, be the one to take us forward?

She's never attempted to govern by cabinet, in thrall as she is to a group of her own advisors. That's why the government is so out of touch and fractious, MPs aren't involved in decision making so they mouth off whenever a camera is pointed their way.

If you make your decisions in a bunker, then it's no surprise you're out of touch with what's going on outside of that your army isn't marching in step.

[dangerousB]

Carl_Manchester said:

May not had many good days in office recently, today was a triumph.

After everything that has been going on in the last couple of months, May identified the two grand stages, the stages where everyone would be paying attention - the Meaningful Vote and the No Confidence motion.

She stole Corbyn's thunder on the first one, by inviting him to call the No Confidence motion and on the second, with the world's media watching, Gove scored great political points off Vince Cable and Ian Blackford, shoehorned a reference to funding the NHS an extra £394 million a week, then dragged Corbyn up on stage and subjected him to a sustained, relentless, merciless teabagging.

Credit where it's due, they've picked their moments and played them perfectly.

[soupdragon1]

Gove speech was actually good entertainment last night, the way he randomly pin pointed an mp, said something nice as a lead in statement before tearing them to pieces was fun to watch. As mentioned earlier, a mic drop would have been a perfect finish.

Did anyone notice when DUP Nigel Dodds got up to highlight that DUP votes got the govt over the line, another MP said thanks and handed over his credit card lol! (In reference to the £1B confidence and supply money)

[Vaud]

dangerousB said:

After everything that has been going on in the last couple of months, May identified the two grand stages, the stages where everyone would be paying attention - the Meaningful Vote and the No Confidence motion.

She stole Corbyn's thunder on the first one, by inviting him to call the No Confidence motion and on the second, with the world's media watching, Gove scored great political points off Vince Cable and Ian Blackford, shoehorned a reference to funding the NHS an extra £394 million a week, then dragged Corbyn up on stage and subjected him to a sustained, relentless, merciless teabagging.

Credit where it's due, they've picked their moments and played them perfectly.

I am still convinced that she triggered the leadership vote to flush out the ERG (by encouraging submission of letters). Maybe not her directly, but through the back channels.

[BlackLabel]

Gove’s performance was very good - but good speakers don’t always = good leaders. Hague for example was a terrible Tory leader. Even Blair and Cameron were superb orators in the commons yet if we look back on their reigns as PM many will say they did more bad than good.

[isaldiri]

BlackLabel said:

Gove’s performance was very good - but good speakers don’t always = good leaders. Hague for example was a terrible Tory leader. Even Blair and Cameron were superb orators in the commons yet if we look back on their reigns as PM many will say they did more bad than good.

^ this. One good speech doesn't make a capable leader. Gove has picked up a well deserved reputation of being untrustworthy and a backstabber that he simply isn't going to shake off anytime soon, he's never going to be able to command enough support to be a successful PM.

[slow_poke]

dangerousB said:

After everything that has been going on in the last couple of months, May identified the two grand stages, the stages where everyone would be paying attention - the Meaningful Vote and the No Confidence motion.

She stole Corbyn's thunder on the first one, by inviting him to call the No Confidence motion and on the second, with the world's media watching, Gove scored great political points off Vince Cable and Ian Blackford, shoehorned a reference to funding the NHS an extra £394 million a week, then dragged Corbyn up on stage and subjected him to a sustained, relentless, merciless teabagging.

Credit where it's due, they've picked their moments and played them perfectly.

[Tom Logan]

bhstewie said:

I've just watched the full thing.

He fking sliced and diced Corbyn there, loved the look on his face when the camera switched to him not sure there was much "gentler politics" going through his mind.

I feel sorry for Tom Watson, must be difficult to keep a straight face.

That was awesome, he chopped Steptoe into little pieces.

It reminded me of the speech by Hague when he tore Gordon Brown to shreds, with David Miliband looking on and smiling as though he'd been kicked in the balls.