Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
Escapegoat said:
Elysium said:
Extension of a50 requires a unanimous decision by the EU council. It is not difficult to see that this might be possible and that it could happen very quickly.
Really? Extending opens a new can of worms.Some EU countries - unfettered by the nice, simple trade benefits that Germany sees - will want something in return for agreeing to an extension. Something political to help their own popularity. Maybe Spain wants some aspect of Gibraltar back on the negotiating table. Etc.
My understanding is that either A50 expiring, or the withdrawl act coming into force, will result in our EU membership ending. A50 by graceful means, Withdrawal act by treaty breach.
How does extending A50 stop our membership being terminated by withdrawal act treaty breach?
The timescale in article 50 is the only thing that is relevant to our membership of the EU. If that is extended, our membership continues.
Elysium said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
Escapegoat said:
Elysium said:
Extension of a50 requires a unanimous decision by the EU council. It is not difficult to see that this might be possible and that it could happen very quickly.
Really? Extending opens a new can of worms.Some EU countries - unfettered by the nice, simple trade benefits that Germany sees - will want something in return for agreeing to an extension. Something political to help their own popularity. Maybe Spain wants some aspect of Gibraltar back on the negotiating table. Etc.
My understanding is that either A50 expiring, or the withdrawl act coming into force, will result in our EU membership ending. A50 by graceful means, Withdrawal act by treaty breach.
How does extending A50 stop our membership being terminated by withdrawal act treaty breach?
The timescale in article 50 is the only thing that is relevant to our membership of the EU. If that is extended, our membership continues.
Withdrawal Act said:
The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (c. 16) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that provides for repealing the European Communities Act 1972, and for Parliamentary approval of the withdrawal agreement being negotiated between HM Government and the European Union.
European Communities Act 1972 said:
The Act provided for the incorporation into UK law of the whole of European Community law and its "acquis communautaire": its Treaties, Regulations and Directives, together with judgments of the European Court of Justice.
By the Act, Community Law (subsequently European Union Law) became binding on all legislation passed by the UK Parliament (and also upon the UK's devolved administrations—the Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales—although none of these institutions existed at the time of the passing of the Act). Arguably the most significant statute to be passed by the Heath government of 1970-74, the Act is also one of the most significant UK constitutional statutes ever passed.
The act has been significantly amended from its original form, incorporating the changes wrought by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty, the Nice Treaty, and the Treaty of Lisbon.
On 13 July 2017, the then Brexit Secretary, David Davis, introduced what became the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to Parliament which, as enacted, makes provision for repealing the 1972 Act on "exit day", defined as 29 March 2019 (at 11 pm).
What am I missing? No ECA1972, EU law is no longer binding, no?By the Act, Community Law (subsequently European Union Law) became binding on all legislation passed by the UK Parliament (and also upon the UK's devolved administrations—the Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales—although none of these institutions existed at the time of the passing of the Act). Arguably the most significant statute to be passed by the Heath government of 1970-74, the Act is also one of the most significant UK constitutional statutes ever passed.
The act has been significantly amended from its original form, incorporating the changes wrought by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty, the Nice Treaty, and the Treaty of Lisbon.
On 13 July 2017, the then Brexit Secretary, David Davis, introduced what became the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to Parliament which, as enacted, makes provision for repealing the 1972 Act on "exit day", defined as 29 March 2019 (at 11 pm).
Elysium said:
The Withdrawal Act has no impact on our membership or compliance with EU treaties. It simply writes EU Law into UK Law on 'exit day'. There is no 'withdrawal act treaty breach'.
The timescale in article 50 is the only thing that is relevant to our membership of the EU. If that is extended, our membership continues.
AIUI the Withdrawal Act also means the ECJ has no further oversight after "exit day" - we don't just transfer all the laws over and leave everything else the same (what would be the point in that). So am pretty sure it does have a bearing on our membership of the EU.The timescale in article 50 is the only thing that is relevant to our membership of the EU. If that is extended, our membership continues.
Whether "exit day" can be changed really quickly...I guess we'll see in the next 60 days or so.
Extending Art50, no matter what the minimal text says, has already been noted by the EU as needing unanimous agreement by the member states. They have already said they won't extend it without good reason, the sub-text of that being a GE or another vote on membership. Rescinding it is different (in every way!).
Of course it's quite possible that everything said to date by politicians on both sides is b
ks - man made the rules, man can unmake them. But then that pretty much torpedoes the whole EU argument on most topics to date. And it also leaves our political classes in a bit of a pickle - they voted for the ref, they voted for the Withdrawal Bill (and all the twists and turns it went through - including being firm on "exit day"). There will be a price to pay for pissing about now. The time for that was over a year ago.Murph7355 said:
Extending Art50, no matter what the minimal text says, has already been noted by the EU as needing unanimous agreement by the member states. They have already said they won't extend it without good reason, the sub-text of that being a GE or another vote on membership. Rescinding it is different (in every way!).
There's also the little problem of EU elections in May, member states need to return MEPs by June IIRC. In February last year, the European Parliament voted to decrease the number of MEPs from 751 to 705 following Brexit.So either we'd need to find a way to remain in the EU with no MEPs (and I would guess no voting rights, which if it wasn't end-dated wouldn't be popular, for good reason) or find a way to reverse the vote on reduction, have an election and return MEPs by june and have them in place until A50 comes into effect again and we leave.
Tricky.
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
Escapegoat said:
Elysium said:
Extension of a50 requires a unanimous decision by the EU council. It is not difficult to see that this might be possible and that it could happen very quickly.
Really? Extending opens a new can of worms.Some EU countries - unfettered by the nice, simple trade benefits that Germany sees - will want something in return for agreeing to an extension. Something political to help their own popularity. Maybe Spain wants some aspect of Gibraltar back on the negotiating table. Etc.
My understanding is that either A50 expiring, or the withdrawl act coming into force, will result in our EU membership ending. A50 by graceful means, Withdrawal act by treaty breach.
How does extending A50 stop our membership being terminated by withdrawal act treaty breach?
The timescale in article 50 is the only thing that is relevant to our membership of the EU. If that is extended, our membership continues.
Withdrawal Act said:
The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (c. 16) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that provides for repealing the European Communities Act 1972, and for Parliamentary approval of the withdrawal agreement being negotiated between HM Government and the European Union.
European Communities Act 1972 said:
The Act provided for the incorporation into UK law of the whole of European Community law and its "acquis communautaire": its Treaties, Regulations and Directives, together with judgments of the European Court of Justice.
By the Act, Community Law (subsequently European Union Law) became binding on all legislation passed by the UK Parliament (and also upon the UK's devolved administrations—the Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales—although none of these institutions existed at the time of the passing of the Act). Arguably the most significant statute to be passed by the Heath government of 1970-74, the Act is also one of the most significant UK constitutional statutes ever passed.
The act has been significantly amended from its original form, incorporating the changes wrought by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty, the Nice Treaty, and the Treaty of Lisbon.
On 13 July 2017, the then Brexit Secretary, David Davis, introduced what became the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to Parliament which, as enacted, makes provision for repealing the 1972 Act on "exit day", defined as 29 March 2019 (at 11 pm).
What am I missing? No ECA1972, EU law is no longer binding, no?By the Act, Community Law (subsequently European Union Law) became binding on all legislation passed by the UK Parliament (and also upon the UK's devolved administrations—the Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales—although none of these institutions existed at the time of the passing of the Act). Arguably the most significant statute to be passed by the Heath government of 1970-74, the Act is also one of the most significant UK constitutional statutes ever passed.
The act has been significantly amended from its original form, incorporating the changes wrought by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty, the Nice Treaty, and the Treaty of Lisbon.
On 13 July 2017, the then Brexit Secretary, David Davis, introduced what became the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to Parliament which, as enacted, makes provision for repealing the 1972 Act on "exit day", defined as 29 March 2019 (at 11 pm).
The Govt enters into treaties and Parliament creates legislation that aligns them with our law.
The a50 process relates to our international treaties with the EU. That process dictates the date our membership ends. The Withdrawal Act is purely a response to that.
In any event, this is something of a moot point as secondary legislation to change the exit date could be put in place very quickly.
There is no chance that the two processes will end up with different dates.
Escapegoat said:
Elysium said:
Extension of a50 requires a unanimous decision by the EU council. It is not difficult to see that this might be possible and that it could happen very quickly.
Really? Extending opens a new can of worms.Some EU countries - unfettered by the nice, simple trade benefits that Germany sees - will want something in return for agreeing to an extension. Something political to help their own popularity. Maybe Spain wants some aspect of Gibraltar back on the negotiating table. Etc.
Escapegoat said:
Escapegoat said:
Elysium said:
Extension of a50 requires a unanimous decision by the EU council. It is not difficult to see that this might be possible and that it could happen very quickly.
Really? Extending opens a new can of worms.Some EU countries - unfettered by the nice, simple trade benefits that Germany sees - will want something in return for agreeing to an extension. Something political to help their own popularity. Maybe Spain wants some aspect of Gibraltar back on the negotiating table. Etc.
The EU would have full control over any decisions around temporary arrangements to reduce disruption and I am sure some people will want to use that to their advantage.
Elysium said:
Interesting. I guess it is human nature that people will attempt to capitalise on our weakness if 'no deal' actually happens.
The EU would have full control over any decisions around temporary arrangements to reduce disruption and I am sure some people will want to use that to their advantage.
It's not just our weakness. It's also Germany's; populists in 'lesser' EU countries get instant leverage if unanimity is required.The EU would have full control over any decisions around temporary arrangements to reduce disruption and I am sure some people will want to use that to their advantage.
Not just countries, either. If an EU country's assent has to be ratified locally, there's a whole extra bag of spanners available to throw in the works. Remember that the Walloonia regional government blocked the whole EU-Canada CETA trade deal until it got what it wanted.
Telegraphs lead article today is that Tory donors are withholding donations as long as May remains PM.
One consideration overlooked in discussions of how each party would fare in a snap election is how ready each of them are for it. If the Tories are short on funds then they will not be well placed, ignoring other considerations like a fractured party.
One consideration overlooked in discussions of how each party would fare in a snap election is how ready each of them are for it. If the Tories are short on funds then they will not be well placed, ignoring other considerations like a fractured party.
techiedave said:
Halb said:
The talking heads on PL this week mentioned how in the background there are preparations going on for a possible election.
Maybot may not really want to win the next election so much?
She has stated that she will not go into the next election as leaderMaybot may not really want to win the next election so much?
And as utterly useless as she is, they haven't really got anyone else who isn't a buffoon, a slimy weasel, a failed Brexit secretary or a "Mother".
techiedave said:
Halb said:
The talking heads on PL this week mentioned how in the background there are preparations going on for a possible election.
Maybot may not really want to win the next election so much?
She has stated that she will not go into the next election as leaderMaybot may not really want to win the next election so much?
I remember hearing her statement and thinking there was some wriggle room, like her other statements about brexit meaning brexit and leaving the EU and following the will of the people etc.
JagLover said:
Telegraphs lead article today is that Tory donors are withholding donations as long as May remains PM.
One consideration overlooked in discussions of how each party would fare in a snap election is how ready each of them are for it. If the Tories are short on funds then they will not be well placed, ignoring other considerations like a fractured party.
What is it with the tories ?? why do they always chose turkeys as leaders and stick with them even when all the evidence is One consideration overlooked in discussions of how each party would fare in a snap election is how ready each of them are for it. If the Tories are short on funds then they will not be well placed, ignoring other considerations like a fractured party.
they are useless and damaging the party and the country
powerstroke said:
What is it with the tories ?? why do they always chose turkeys as leaders and stick with them even when all the evidence is
they are useless and damaging the party and the country
I think they just live inside their own narrow bubble of like minded people and advisors, and also think that Twitter is the be all and end all of what the general public think.they are useless and damaging the party and the country
I think this is why they're so shocked and confused when the general public never vote the way they think, or what their equally narrow minded advisers told them what the public think.
techiedave said:
She has stated that she will not go into the next election as leader
So she'll be gone by this Wednesday? 
Corbyn is trying everything possible to force an election, getting frustrated like someone in a speed limited minibus trying to overtake a tractor on a country lane... from the votes of no confidence, to forcing the Plan B to avoid No Deal Brexit, it seems an election is around the corner, but none of the other clowns seem credible to replace her. She is being pulled in various directions by the EU, Brexiteers, Remainers, and any one of them could throw her under the bus at any moment.
Boris has lost his mojo, Rees-Mogg is in a timewarp, Corbyn seems too much of a loose cannon. The clock will run down, nothing will change, there's talk of Article 50 being extended anyway
Edited by AlexS_LDN on Saturday 26th January 17:29
andy_s said:
powerstroke said:
What is it with the tories ?? why do they always chose turkeys as leaders and stick with them even when all the evidence is
they are useless and damaging the party and the country
No one wants/ed the job at this particular juncture.they are useless and damaging the party and the country
usual seat warming parish council stuff deck chair rearranging while they wait for the election and 5 years off while the other
lot keep the seats warm but really !!!!!
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