Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
chris watton said:
glazbagun said:
chris watton said:
Perhaps a little 'tin foil hat-ish',(many said the same when others mentioned the possible formation of an EU army) but just seeing the way the wind is blowing. It is gradual, but I didn't think that so many would be welcoming/blind to what may transpire as some kind of fascist dystopia with open arms.
I quote this because it's a concern I have but view it in the opposite manner!If I were to put my tin foil hat on and plump for a likely fascist dystopia it would be post Brexit Britain, or post indy Scotland which would get my wager before the EU, despite our relative histories.
My reasoning being that a popular nationalist uprising in a small country seems more likely to gain power and turn very bad than in a multi-national mess of a supra-state with international and interdepartmental rivalry that fudges everything to paper over the cracks in it's structure.
I'm pretty anti-authoritarian by default and both Brexit and IndyScot initially appealed to my basic reflexes, but on reflection feel we will always have a ruling class, so better that they're at each others throats than ours.
I don't know, perhaps it is all a huge rouse by our own political parties to look and act as inept as possible so we all end up thinking an unelected bunch of ex and wannabe communists isn't such a bad idea!
In the UK we have-
- Blair era anti-terror laws which are often misused.
- British collaboration with the NSA surveillence of large populations and the Tempora program as revealed by Edward Snowden
- A Prime Minister and government who introduced the Snoopers Charter, requiring internet providers to save all domains visited by everyone in the country for one year.
- A Prime Minister who has advocated withdrawal from the European Court of Human Rights.
- A Prime Minister who has called "citizens of the world" "citizens of nowhere" and a home secretary who is attempting to strip British citizens of their citizenship against international convention.
In opposition we have:
- A leader who respects democracy so much he's still there despite losing a vote of no confidence from his own party.
- Who frequently needs to be arm-twisted into condemning those who have used violence to achieve political aims.
- A party threatening members with de-selection for not being loyal enough to Dear Leader.
- A Shadow Chancellor who wants to fight capitalists, thinks venezuela is a mess because it isn't Socialist enough and that members of the opposite political-economic spectrum should be harassed in the streets.
You can vote one out, but then the other will get in. Maybe by a landslide. You might be able to vote them out once you think it's all got a bit too authoritarian, but voting out fascist leaders often doesn't work very well. It's very inlikely, but if it did happen, and we accidentally made Mussolini PM, they'd have a lot of power very quickly.
Now, on the EU side, sure we have comments about an EU army (which we will have no influence over post-brexit), there are undoubted democratic deficiencies and a lot of corruption. The desire for a USofE is in plain sight in many cases, but they will always be limited by the disparate cultures and compromises required to drag 28 countries in anything like the same direction.
So whilst their inertia, disagreements and general uselessness are bad for crises such as the migration explosion (which could have done with a more centralised and authoritarian approach, but as it happened just caused a lot of internal discord and helped noone), it also means that they'll find it a mountain to climb if they try to impose their will on 28 countries.
So that's the gist of my earlier post. It's not to say that I like the EU at all- the Lisbon Treaty was a step too far and I can totally see why people would want to leave or fear the end of democracy if they were to put on their tin-foil as I have done above. I think a sudden snap into dystopian authoritarian hell thanks to a crisis which requires strong leadership is more likely in the next century than a death-by-a-thousand-cuts masterplan to turn the EU into the Soviet Union.
Leave/remain for me is a choice between two bad options, as are a lot of voting decisions.
Personally, re- my worldview and the media- in my case it was not recent media scaremongering that led me to my worldview (although I'd be naive to think I'm beyond such influence) but experiences growing up in a variety of small tribal communities over the years, being in the majority/minority in other situations and a general witness to human behavior over the years, coupled with reading too much history (can't help feel our current useless lot feel like the Weimar Republic before economic ruin allowed a certain charismatic and motivated leader to unify the country) and a healthy fear of nationalism caused by general exposure to bigotry in my youth.
In both Brexit and Indy referendums it was the behavior and arguments of those who favoured leaving that pushed me from my initial side of the fence other, rather than a blazing beacon from the Union side which attracted me.
Edited by glazbagun on Wednesday 20th March 19:42
glazbagun said:
- British collaboration with the NSA surveillence of large populations and the t program as revealed by Edward Snowden
Trophy Husband said:
Watch Guy Verhofstaft speech. Bang on the money for me. Sorry can't post Twitter link. Reading between the lines he's embarrassed about how the EU have dealt with Brexit. Hats off in my opinion.
That would be an interesting one to watch - I guess that was on someone elses twitter feed rather than his own which make grim reading if you aren't super pro EU (dressed up as "European")techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
don'tbesilly said:
techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
don'tbesilly said:
What Cable said:
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
you often see the mask slip with him and his evil partner in crime. I just cant see him getting through an election Campaign with losing it at least once"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
B'stard Child said:
don'tbesilly said:
techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
B'stard Child said:
don'tbesilly said:
techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
don'tbesilly said:
B'stard Child said:
don'tbesilly said:
techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
And we did want control of our fishing so we might be able to get him more than two
B'stard Child said:
Jesus - racist as well as antisemitic
Jesus wasn’t antisemitic, he was a Jew. Although he did bring about Christianity, which effectively supplanted Judaism. So maybe you’re onto something there...He definitely wasn’t racist though. Quite brown I believe, not the lily white English speaker the Americans portray him as.
MellowshipSlinky said:
B'stard Child said:
don'tbesilly said:
techiedave said:
Vince Cable looking life death warmed up. But he is saying Corbyn walked out of leaders talks because the Independent Group was there
He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
What Cable said:He is further stating that Theresa May was simply reiterating her deal or no deal
He states he wants to stop article 50
"Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler politics was found wanting as he stomped out of the meeting before it began rather than breathe the same air as Chuka Umunna.”
don'tbesilly said:
Bill said:
johnxjsc1985 said:
The EU do not want a long delay because we cannot remain members with no MEP's and elections are in MAY. The EU will give a short delay if her deal is passed. Its like a ticking time bomb and not sure if we should cut the blue wire or the red wire
Would they prefer no deal or an extension past May though?I read it's either May's deal or the UK leaves without a deal, those are the 2 options.
She knows that the HoC will not countenance a No Deal Brexit. She also knows that the Brexit wing of her party is terrified about a long delay - it will sink Brexit: EU digs in, no change to current deal, HoC refuses to prepare adequately for No Deal, time runs down again, second referendum. So this plays into May's hands - take my deal or the only things we know you definitely don't want are more likely.
Suits the EU too.
johnxjsc1985 said:
Jimboka said:
I’ll donate £1 to charity if she doesn’t say ‘it’s my deal or no deal’ 
I heard she is going to get Noel Edmunds to say it
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff