Brexit: would you change your vote.
Discussion
threespires said:
wilwak said:
May’s in an impossible position.
There’s no chance of resolving this unless MPs vote to honour the referendum rather than their own personal views.
Nothing will please everybody.
I have enormous respect for May and her determination to find a solution when everybody else has ducked it.
She’s gone from Zero to Hero for me.
Who else would have stuck with it like she has? Nobody.
She’s a remainder who is trying to deliver on the referendum result. That’s true democracy.
I agree..There’s no chance of resolving this unless MPs vote to honour the referendum rather than their own personal views.
Nothing will please everybody.
I have enormous respect for May and her determination to find a solution when everybody else has ducked it.
She’s gone from Zero to Hero for me.
Who else would have stuck with it like she has? Nobody.
She’s a remainder who is trying to deliver on the referendum result. That’s true democracy.
colonel c said:
threespires said:
wilwak said:
May’s in an impossible position.
There’s no chance of resolving this unless MPs vote to honour the referendum rather than their own personal views.
Nothing will please everybody.
I have enormous respect for May and her determination to find a solution when everybody else has ducked it.
She’s gone from Zero to Hero for me.
Who else would have stuck with it like she has? Nobody.
She’s a remainder who is trying to deliver on the referendum result. That’s true democracy.
I agree..There’s no chance of resolving this unless MPs vote to honour the referendum rather than their own personal views.
Nothing will please everybody.
I have enormous respect for May and her determination to find a solution when everybody else has ducked it.
She’s gone from Zero to Hero for me.
Who else would have stuck with it like she has? Nobody.
She’s a remainder who is trying to deliver on the referendum result. That’s true democracy.
The treasonous establishment have no idea what thin ice they're on right now. If the Conservative Party want to have a political future, they need to get rid of her ASAP & appoint someone who actually believes in this country for once.
Once we're out of the EU and trading on WTO terms (like we do already with the USA and China, I might add) we'll wonder what all the fuss was about. It's not like the EU is going to last anyway. It's dying on its arse due to its many built-in deficiencies anyway, With us going and the loss of prestige, influence & money that brings, it's just going to bring forward the EU's inevitable end. What a joyous day for the people of Europe that will be.
Remain and still remain.
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
One of the reasons often cited for the support of UKIP and the leave vote was the feeling that the mainstream politicians and the establishment did not represent or care for many people’s views and concerns.
As we watch the deliberate destruction of BREXT we see that nothing has changed. The utter contempt of MPs such as Anna Soubry, whose constituency voted strongly to leave is sickening. Likewise the those ‘Brexiteers’ who are not willing to compromise for their own selfish reasons.
As we watch the deliberate destruction of BREXT we see that nothing has changed. The utter contempt of MPs such as Anna Soubry, whose constituency voted strongly to leave is sickening. Likewise the those ‘Brexiteers’ who are not willing to compromise for their own selfish reasons.
NDA said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Can anyone explain why the ability to vote in a new bunch of useless tossers that barely changes anything every 5 years makes much difference versus a bunch of unelected tossers?
You make a good point - AA Gill constructed this very argument before the referendum , he wrote "it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg."However, many who voted out were voting on the basis of trying to halt the mission creep of the EU. What started as a laudable notion of countries in a common market being able to trade freely, morphed into the political ambitions of a federal state - that, for me, is at the centre of the debate. I don't want to be part of a super state governed by bureaucrats in Strasburg and Brussels, I really don't. Arguing that we were at the 'top table' is risible nonsense - we were completely impotent.
Control over our borders is, in practice, a bit of a sideshow - we have greater immigration from outside of the EU. However, it is the idea that we are ceding control that is troublesome. This doesn't mean Brexiteers are racist, but merely a recognition that a sovereign nation should retain control - not to reduce numbers and kick people out, but to maintain our rights over the country's borders. And this, of course, is only one element of the debate, but it's one that's taken undue prominence as Remainers reach for their Xenophobe cards.
A sovereign nation should retain control - but why? Why does it REALLY matter? It gives some illusion that you'll be treated according to the needs of your specific land but do you really get that? Our politicians being useless means you don't.
It just feels like tribalism for no real reason. Some vague notion that we should be proud to be governed by useless tossers just because they were born where we were. It doesn't make either them or us special for having been born in Britain does it? We're every bit as unremarkable as anyone from anywhere else in the world because we're all human.
At the end of the day, our defined borders are artificial constraints anyway aren't they? Nature didn't put them there, at least, not in the fashion that we as humans have. Eventually one day we'll just be 'Earth' and it's gonna be sad to see us still fighting the same bulls
t tribal nonsense in space. I'm well aware that's a long time off but it always struck me as sad that war won't change and tribalism won't change either.Variomatic said:
Remain and still remain.
No issue with thatVariomatic said:
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
Have issue with bold - all leavers aren't saying that - some have said all along that a proper exit was sort out the issues that are important and likely tou screw both UK and EU and then thrash out a sensible trading arrangementVariomatic said:
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
Nope in bold - I put it down to them being useless s and it was entirely to be expected - part of the learning curveF1GTRUeno said:
It just feels like tribalism for no real reason.
Sovereignty, culture, tribalism - yes.... any anthropologist will tell you that we are tribal and that tribes seek to protect their culture. It's why some might rejoice in the richness of Spanish, French or Italian culture (for example) rather than dream of an homogeneous federal state where the main goal is bureaucratic power and with it, a new bland culture of dissimilar countries mashed together under a common flag.It could be argued that this is all rather pathetic and that we should let it go.... let the new state just wash over us. Freedom for all, open borders, the hardest workers paying for the laziest... I don't buy that vision of utopia. I think there's another way.
I also wonder, knowing what we know now, if we had remained outside of the EU - would we vote to join it? I don't think we would. It's not fit for purpose.
NDA said:
I also wonder, knowing what we know now, if we had remained outside of the EU - would we vote to join it? I don't think we would.
I'm not sure I can disagree with that, but I think it's important to remember that we are in a position of having a preferential arrangement in comparison to joining afresh, and many, many years of things evolving to work within the system as it is and as we are in it.So you can both not want to leave as we are now, while agreeing that you wouldn't necessarily join if currently in some theoretical independent successful position.
B'stard Child said:
Variomatic said:
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
Have issue with bold - all leavers aren't saying that - some have said all along that a proper exit was sort out the issues that are important and likely tou screw both UK and EU and then thrash out a sensible trading arrangementB'stard Child said:
Variomatic said:
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
Nope in bold - I put it do,wn to them being useless s and it was entirely to be expected - part of the learning curveEdited by Variomatic on Wednesday 12th December 09:15
Edited by Variomatic on Wednesday 12th December 09:17
Raygun said:
Praise the EU by all means but insulting people who have a different democratic point of view to yours don't do you or your fellow Remainers any good what so ever.
I'm not insulting leave voters, only conspiracy theorists who really believe people like May would destroy their careers in some curious quest to halt things. And conspiracy theorists deserve all they get, whichever side they're on.Variomatic said:
Remain and still remain.
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
The EU doesn’t put the interests of any of its members in any position. It goes no further than considering the position of the EU as a political institution. That’s all that matters. All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
The evidence is clear across most of Southern Europe and it is also blindingly obviously the reason why the referendum went the way it did.
It never ceases to amaze me that some just can’t grasp that most basic of concepts.
REALIST123 said:
The EU doesn’t put the interests of any of its members in any position. It goes no further than considering the position of the EU as a political institution. That’s all that matters.
The evidence is clear across most of Southern Europe and it is also blindingly obviously the reason why the referendum went the way it did.
It never ceases to amaze me that some just can’t grasp that most basic of concepts.
Not as simple as that. The Southern EU countries are in the mess they are in not JUST because of the EU, but also because of themselves. They are inefficient and with huge black economies and they have failed to reform. The evidence is clear across most of Southern Europe and it is also blindingly obviously the reason why the referendum went the way it did.
It never ceases to amaze me that some just can’t grasp that most basic of concepts.
toppstuff said:
Not as simple as that. The Southern EU countries are in the mess they are in not JUST because of the EU, but also because of themselves. They are inefficient and with huge black economies and they have failed to reform.
They've usually been the author of their own misfortune, it didn't need the EU to help make it a mess.I would change my vote from 'Remain' to "Leave'
I am not happy with the way Juncker (who voted for him?) and May have agreed to a customs union.
The public did vote with the idea that there would be free trade agreements with Britain being outside Europe.
On wikipedia (usually seen as impartial) this is listed there as one of the 'leave' campaigns.
The UK does import more from the EU than anywhere else, but exports more to the rest of the world than to the EU.
src https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/in...
Freedom in Europe and the falling of the Berlin wall was for me about democracy, this is not how the EU commission is now.
I am not happy with the way Juncker (who voted for him?) and May have agreed to a customs union.
The public did vote with the idea that there would be free trade agreements with Britain being outside Europe.
On wikipedia (usually seen as impartial) this is listed there as one of the 'leave' campaigns.
The UK does import more from the EU than anywhere else, but exports more to the rest of the world than to the EU.
src https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/in...
Freedom in Europe and the falling of the Berlin wall was for me about democracy, this is not how the EU commission is now.
Edited by mondeomk4 on Wednesday 12th December 23:28
Variomatic said:
Remain and still remain.
All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
Our strong negotiation position has been undermined by May and her euro cronies deliberately, its hardly political suicide to ensure the very well paid positions that these f*cking quislings will slither into with the EU after the damage has been done. All the leavers saying "look how the EU has behaved" - of course it's behaved like that. It puts the interests of the remaining club members ahead of the ones wanting to leave-but-keep-the-membership-benefits, and it's absolutely right to do so. All that's really happened is that the (blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) lie of our "strong negotiating position" has been exposed for all to see.
As for conspiracy theories about all this being the intention all along - are you guys seriously suggesting that May and half the rest of the Tories have voluntarily committed slow political suicide and probably ensured a Corbyn government within the next year in order to protect what they believed was the public good? If you really believe that of them then, frankly, you're too naive to be trusted with a vote in the first place!
I,m leave and still leave.
We had scare tactics in 2016, stock markets would plunge downwards etc if we voted leave, lots of negative forecasts that never came true. Scare tactics again now. Nothing happened
Millenium, When the clock ticked over from 23.59. 1999. to 2000, there were scare stories then, planes falling out the sky, nhs computers crashing and people dying as a result, being plunged into darkness etc etc. What happened, f******, nothing.
Project fear again.
Pressure now for a new vote, "peoples vote", it,s on the cards now.
Brilliant idea by the remainers, 3 options on ballot paper, one being remain, any other 2 options will split leave vote.
Work it out yourselves.
We had scare tactics in 2016, stock markets would plunge downwards etc if we voted leave, lots of negative forecasts that never came true. Scare tactics again now. Nothing happened
Millenium, When the clock ticked over from 23.59. 1999. to 2000, there were scare stories then, planes falling out the sky, nhs computers crashing and people dying as a result, being plunged into darkness etc etc. What happened, f******, nothing.
Project fear again.
Pressure now for a new vote, "peoples vote", it,s on the cards now.
Brilliant idea by the remainers, 3 options on ballot paper, one being remain, any other 2 options will split leave vote.
Work it out yourselves.
I voted remain but to be honest I think whichever gives us the quickest conclusion would be the best route to take. The reason I say that is I feel the process is possibly doing more damage than the result will.
As a remainder I’m also a bit annoyed by the superior attitude of other remain voters, the arrogance shown by some is almost thuggish. Perhaps not enough to make me change my vote but enough to make me consider it if another vote transpired.
As a remainder I’m also a bit annoyed by the superior attitude of other remain voters, the arrogance shown by some is almost thuggish. Perhaps not enough to make me change my vote but enough to make me consider it if another vote transpired.
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