Brexit: would you change your vote.
Discussion
ClaphamGT3 said:
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
fouronthefloor said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
ClaphamGT3 said:
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
No impasse I’m afraid, it’s going ahead, probably with no deal. Plans are being made so you are wasting your breath. fouronthefloor said:
Perhaps you could start by explaining why you voted to remain
My reasons for voting the other way are very simple because I live a very simple life. I'd like to be persuaded that I voted the wrong way.
From what I've read so far, I made the right choice.
You obviously know a lot. I'd like you to give me some meaty nuggets of wisdom to help me regret my decision.
There are couple of remain voters on PH who would be able to help you out...….but I've not seen either post on here for months.My reasons for voting the other way are very simple because I live a very simple life. I'd like to be persuaded that I voted the wrong way.
From what I've read so far, I made the right choice.
You obviously know a lot. I'd like you to give me some meaty nuggets of wisdom to help me regret my decision.
wormus said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
No impasse I’m afraid, it’s going ahead, probably with no deal. Plans are being made so you are wasting your breath. Merry Christmas and have a beer chaps.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
Now everyone has been taught they are winners but welcome to the real world.
Not everyone wins in life.
Edited by Allanv on Monday 24th December 18:04
ClaphamGT3 said:
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
We won't be having another referendum.No one has found new love for the EU but you Remainers want to take advantage of people's dislike of this long winded saga (created by Remainers and the EU)currently ongoing hoping loads of people would go with the easy option of staying if we had a new referendum.
As someone who was slightly on the side of Remain I think the way the EU and Remainers have behaved since the result has made me now a strong supporter of Brexit.
Likes Fast Cars said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
wormus said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
So, given that we currently have an impasse on Brexit that may very well lead to no Brexit at all, why not solve the matter once and for all and have another referendum?
No impasse I’m afraid, it’s going ahead, probably with no deal. Plans are being made so you are wasting your breath. Mistryride said:
Must admit I was a remain voter, now I'm a suck it and see type. I think whatever happens there will be a lot of dissapointed people on all sides, and the reason people voted leave will not be solved.
Merry Christmas and have a beer chaps.
Well said. I’ve always believed things are the way they are because people want things to happen. Nothing to do with us being inside the EU. That merely facilitiates it. If people want to trade with or come to Britain, they will. In the same way that being in the EU hasn’t fixed Greece or Italy:Merry Christmas and have a beer chaps.
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
imagine how bent out of shape you have to be to mark yourself out as a stuck up t
t on a public forum 
Leicester Loyal said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
Pathetic comment. Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Sorry to burst your bubbles of preconception guys but I'm not actually in favour of a second referendum - but it does raise a wry smile to see the extent to which it puts the fear into leavers
Are you looking at another thread ? - what '.....puts fear into leavers' ?All I see is Leavers getting frustrated with the likes of you just messing about and the other frothing Remainers who really can't accept that a democratic vote didn't give them the result they wanted - and have been throwing their toys out of the pram ever since.
If nothing else, all this debate has simply highlighted how utterly out of touch the government, and many of those living/working in London/SE, are in relation to the bulk of the population in the English provinces.
Elysium said:
B'stard Child said:
Elysium said:
gooner1 said:
Elysium said:
I believe that a 'first past the post' representative democracy is the best model. Our democracy has evolved over thousands of years, during which time all sorts of people have tried and failed to twist it to their advantage. It is imperfect, but the checks and balances that are built into the system mean that all people have representation.
You are suggesting that the majority interest has been left behind for 40 years, between the referendum on entering the EU and the 2016 referendum on leaving it. You have no evidence base for that. The majority wanted to join the EU 40 years ago. At some point that shifted in favour of leaving, but we don't know when. We also don't know if that is still the case.
You say that my opinions 'crumble under mild scrutiny'. I assume that means that you simply disagree with them, which is up to you. It does not mean that they are wrong.
The majority wanted to join the EU 40 years ago?You are suggesting that the majority interest has been left behind for 40 years, between the referendum on entering the EU and the 2016 referendum on leaving it. You have no evidence base for that. The majority wanted to join the EU 40 years ago. At some point that shifted in favour of leaving, but we don't know when. We also don't know if that is still the case.
You say that my opinions 'crumble under mild scrutiny'. I assume that means that you simply disagree with them, which is up to you. It does not mean that they are wrong.
Really?
The referendum result was not legally binding; however, it was widely accepted that the vote would be the final say on the matter and would be politically binding on all future Westminster Parliaments. In a 1975 pamphlet Prime Minister Harold Wilson said: "I ask you to use your vote. For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict." The pamphlet also said: "Now the time has come for you to decide. The Government will accept your decision—whichever way it goes."
Referendum Question said:
Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?
Choice was Yes or NoThe majority accepted the governments action of joining - Do any of those assurances in bold ring any bells
Elysium said:
Over time membership arrangements for that organisation and it's name have changed and the majority no longer wanted to be members in Jun 2016.
This does not support the argument that 'the majority have been left behind for 40 years'.
Bit in Bold whatever the creep in scope it's pretty clear that the majority in 2016 didn't support continued membershipThis does not support the argument that 'the majority have been left behind for 40 years'.
I have explained why I now support a second referendum and why I do not accept that is undemocratic.
amusingduck said:
You had exactly that. For 40 years. The result was the majority interest being left behind - I presume you didn't find that so unpleasant.
You know what a "result" is, it's what happens after something else happens. I did not imply that the majority were left behind "for 40 years".gooner1 said:
And I still maintain that trying to hold another referendum before the democratically reached mandate to leave the EU has been enacted is just another way to get the vote you dislike overturned and the vote you want carried out. Undemocratic and hypocritical.
I like many other leave voters have stated that had the vote gone the remain direction, then that verdict would have been respected. That train of thought is obviously nor reciprocated by
remainers such as yourself.
This shows a closed mind. I like many other leave voters have stated that had the vote gone the remain direction, then that verdict would have been respected. That train of thought is obviously nor reciprocated by
remainers such as yourself.
I understand that you disagree with me, but this response suggests that you have not considered anything I have written. You have instead defaulted to a preconceived view that anyone arguing for a second referendum simply wants to overturn the previous vote.
Even when you are presented with a detailed explanation otherwise, you cannot see beyond your own bias. So all you are doing is endlessly repeating your view without ever advancing your understanding.
gooner1 said:
The feelings of entitlement you display make me laugh, at the same time as heightening my pleasure of leaving your beloved EU , perhaps for good or maybe another referendum In 40 years will reverse our democratic vote. 
This is just weird. When did I say I loved the EU? How did I display feelings of entitlement?Edited by Elysium on Monday 24th December 20:09
ClaphamGT3 said:
I think you'll find that where we get to by the 29th March is an awful lot harder to predict than you think. No amount of wishing for a particular outcome will make it come true. Sorry.
No, I know it’s difficult being on the losing side but you are confusing what you want to happen with the reality. You lost 2 years ago and you are still losing. It’s nobody’s fault but yours that you cannot see that.Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 24th December 20:13
ClaphamGT3 said:
The irrational - almost visceral - opposition to a second referendum by Brexiteers is interesting.
Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
You talk like having another referendum is a game of dare, something easily done when your only wish is to overturn the result.Whilst, by and large, leave voters were less well educated and less intelligent than remain voters, I can't believe that they are so stupid that they believe the pro -Brexit nonsense that another vote by the electorate somehow betrays the wishes of the electorate.
That only leaves the conclusion that they aren't confident that, now, with better facts, they'd win.
The problem with you ' vote again ' people is that you would not be tolerating any calls for another referendum had you won, that's your fundamental dishonesty in all this.
Perhaps if Remainers weren't so thick they would have left room for another vote, rather than gambling it all with the arrogant certainty of winning ?
amusingduck said:
Elysium said:
The specific point I was countering was the suggestion that the the majority have been left behind for 40 years. Your clarifications regarding the 1975 referendum are fine, but they don’t change that core point. The majority in 2016 voted to leave and we are on course to do so in Mar 2019.
I have explained why I now support a second referendum and why I do not accept that is undemocratic.
Comprehension fail, or is it a strawman?I have explained why I now support a second referendum and why I do not accept that is undemocratic.
amusingduck said:
You had exactly that. For 40 years. The result was the majority interest being left behind - I presume you didn't find that so unpleasant.
You know what a "result" is, it's what happens after something else happens. I did not imply that the majority were left behind "for 40 years".I agree that we reached a situation In Jun 2016 where the majority view wanted to leave the EU. I also understand the argument that this majority view had been ‘left behind’ by our representative democracy.
Arguably, UKIPs success in the 2015 general election shows the timing for the shift in mindset. I was not particularly aware of widespread dissatisfaction with the EU at the time, but it was clearly there.
Robertj21a said:
I actually liken it to the lack of trust nowadays in all so-called 'experts' - all too often they've been wildly out on their thoughts, forecasts etc.
It's as if many people have come round to the idea that simple 'People Power' is just as effective, or better.
Unfortunately the "people" in "people power" seem not to have understood the limits of "expertise." All too often, we're dealing with probabilities, not certainties. An "expert" can tell you if a bridge will stand - but economics (say) is not engineering.It's as if many people have come round to the idea that simple 'People Power' is just as effective, or better.
There's a desire for "experts" to give an opinion; when they do, when they are clear as to the limits of that opinion, they are nonetheless lambasted afterwards if their opinion doesn't match the observable outcome.
Just because expert opinion doesn't get it spot on in one given sample case, doesn't mean we should turn our back on learning and expertise.
Does it?
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