How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
Nickgnome said:
The DUP are not representing their electorate. NI voted remain and a number of trade organisations including farming are not happy with the DUP.
NI results were very localised. Of 18 constituencies, 7 voted leave. Leave won resoundingly in one, but were absolutely hammered in eight. The remaining results were close.
3 of 10 DUP UK Parliamenary constituencies voted Remain, the rest Leave - so every NI Leave-voting constituency has a DUP MP.
Arlene Foster's not an MP, but her NIA constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain. Shame she's not listening to them!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-366...
ash73 said:
A United States of Europe someone mentioned earlier hits the nail on the head, it's actually the key decision everyone needs to make; is that the future you want?
Doesn't seem to have worked out too badly for the USA, though? (current "President" aside)But it's just a dog-whistle phrase, really. You're implying there are specific powers and rights that you're sure you're going to imminently lose, without saying what they are. We still have a veto, and our ability to invoke A50 is a prime example of exercising our sovereignty. The difficulties we're experiencing now are are just down to it being a bloody difficult thing to do that nobody's attempted before.
Summary here - is it enough to win over cross party MPs?
EU said:
Text of EU summit conclusions on Brexit
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
saaby93 said:
Summary here - is it enough to win over cross party MPs?
No, without changes to the legal text of the WA everything else means nothing as it has no legal standing.EU said:
Text of EU summit conclusions on Brexit
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
If that is what May has achieved in her visit to Brussels it was a waste of time and taxpayers money.
Derek Smith said:
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
No, we vote in MPs to represent us, not to decide what's best for us. You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
Elysium said:
Parliament don’t seem to want Mays deal or no-deal.
A two stage referendum would be totally fair:
1. First decide if we want to leave or not in the knowledge that there are only two options for leaving available.
2. Then everyone, leave or remain, gets to state their preferred option if the decision is to leave.
I don’t know what would win, but we will find out what people really want, whereas at the moment everyone is just guessing.
Again, we've already voted to leave. Remaining is out of the question.A two stage referendum would be totally fair:
1. First decide if we want to leave or not in the knowledge that there are only two options for leaving available.
2. Then everyone, leave or remain, gets to state their preferred option if the decision is to leave.
I don’t know what would win, but we will find out what people really want, whereas at the moment everyone is just guessing.
silentbrown said:
NI results were very localised. Of 18 constituencies, 7 voted leave.
Leave won resoundingly in one, but were absolutely hammered in eight. The remaining results were close.
3 of 10 DUP UK Parliamenary constituencies voted Remain, the rest Leave - so every NI Leave-voting constituency has a DUP MP.
Arlene Foster's not an MP, but her NIA constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain. Shame she's not listening to them!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-366...
Yes it is. Leave won resoundingly in one, but were absolutely hammered in eight. The remaining results were close.
3 of 10 DUP UK Parliamenary constituencies voted Remain, the rest Leave - so every NI Leave-voting constituency has a DUP MP.
Arlene Foster's not an MP, but her NIA constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain. Shame she's not listening to them!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-366...
However I believe MPs should vote for what they believe. We are a representative democracy.
The logical conclusion is that if their electorate do not like them they can be de-selected and the local party select another candidate.
Unfortunatyely the electorate now seem to believe they should dictate how and MP thinks which in the long term will be very ,very bad for our democracy.
What is even worse is the majority of the electorate are not even members of political party and then moan when their MP does not live up to their expectations.
Nickgnome said:
Leicester Loyal said:
Again, we've already voted to leave. Remaining is out of the question.
Fortunately you have absolutely no say. Just 1 vote when the time comes.What point in voting ? Such roads lead to dark days for us all.
saaby93 said:
Summary here - is it enough to win over cross party MPs?
Nope. It says nothing any different. And even lays on a final note that has threatening undertones (the sensitive Leaver in me no doubt 
).Hopefully the accounts people will reject her expense claim for her Easyjet flight. Waste of time.
Get the vote done on 21st Jan. Let gonks like Lucas and Vince Cable tie themselves in knots with "people's votes" and let the clock run out.
- An amendment to allow the UK to remain in the EU Customs Union was defeated by 320 votes to 114
- An amendment to hold a referendum on whether to: (1) accept the final exit deal agreed with the EU; or (2) remain in the EU, was defeated by 319 votes to 23
mx5nut said:
Leicester Loyal said:
Again, we've already voted to leave. Remaining is out of the question.
Only if you want to live in a country where parliament is no longer sovereign. No unlike those who prattle about 'representative democracy'.
don'tbesilly said:
saaby93 said:
Summary here - is it enough to win over cross party MPs?
No, without changes to the legal text of the WA everything else means nothing as it has no legal standing.EU said:
Text of EU summit conclusions on Brexit
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
If that is what May has achieved in her visit to Brussels it was a waste of time and taxpayers money.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1073...
I do wonder whether or not the EU is aiming for a total capitulation. May’s deal is, as she says, the only deal in town. The alternatives are no deal or row back. The EU’s positioning appears to be making deal almost impossible.
mx5nut said:
Only if you want to live in a country where parliament is no longer sovereign.
Look at what the Remain advocating PM noted ahead of the actual vote.Look at what we voted for in 2016.
Look at what the vast majority of people voted for in the GE (Labour and Tory versus LD).
Look at what the majority of MPs voted for ref Art50 and then, more specifically, with the Withdrawal Act.
Parliament has demonstrated its sovereignty on this matter on numerous occasions. Remaining does not figure in any of those votes and motions. Quite the opposite.
Were it to suddenly raise its head again as a result of a vocal minority it would be an absolute travesty. But I guess stranger things have happened...
Leicester Loyal said:
Derek Smith said:
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
No, we vote in MPs to represent us, not to decide what's best for us. You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
Ridgemont said:
don'tbesilly said:
saaby93 said:
Summary here - is it enough to win over cross party MPs?
No, without changes to the legal text of the WA everything else means nothing as it has no legal standing.EU said:
Text of EU summit conclusions on Brexit
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
UK withdrawal deal 'not open for renegotiation'
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
If that is what May has achieved in her visit to Brussels it was a waste of time and taxpayers money.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1073...
I do wonder whether or not the EU is aiming for a total capitulation. May’s deal is, as she says, the only deal in town. The alternatives are no deal or row back. The EU’s positioning appears to be making deal almost impossible.
200 Tory MP's voted for her last night, and we now have the pleasure of a further 12 months of a PM who will go down in history as the worst PM this country has had for a significant number of years, some would say ever.
Fittster said:
Leicester Loyal said:
Derek Smith said:
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
No, we vote in MPs to represent us, not to decide what's best for us. You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
don'tbesilly said:
Some would say they were shocked, considerably more would not be shocked at all.
200 Tory MP's voted for her last night, and we now have the pleasure of a further 12 months of a PM who will go down in history as the worst PM this country has had for a significant number of years, some would say ever.
I’m inclined to be a bit more lenient: she has a Gordian knot to unravel. She can’t cut it because nearly half the country is in revolt.200 Tory MP's voted for her last night, and we now have the pleasure of a further 12 months of a PM who will go down in history as the worst PM this country has had for a significant number of years, some would say ever.
Somehow she is trying to unravel it but the results of her diplomatic mission will not help. I do think that the EU think a backpeddle is an option. Right now that is an impossibility and with the no deal default in play I suspect with stunts like the EU tightening the diplomatic missive will really begin to start bringing out the mule in the British electorate. No one likes being pushed around. Counterproductive. Apparently it was the Irish that insisted on the ratcheting: I really do think that Varadkar is massively overplaying his hand.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff