How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
pgh said:
pubrunner said:
Ultimately, I think that a three-option vote would be even more divisive (if that's possible) than the original referendum.
It would also be against the very clear rules set out by the Electoral Commission.Would you like to remain in the European Union?
1. Yes
2. Maybe
amusingduck said:
I guess we'll just have to re-run the first referendum then, with the questions reflecting how "better informed" we are.
Would you like to remain in the European Union?
1. Yes
2. Maybe
Would you like to remain in the European Union?
1. Yes
2. Maybe
I'm surprised this wording wasn't used in 2016 - politicians would have had plenty of wriggle room, unlike the current situation of kicking the can further down the road.
saaby93 said:
There could be a 4 vote referendum with 2 leaves and and 2 stays
1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
Not happening.1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
pistonheads2018 said:
saaby93 said:
There could be a 4 vote referendum with 2 leaves and and 2 stays
1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
Not happening.1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
In practice the two viable options are 2 and 3
It is clear as day that Leavers comprise 3 subsets:
1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
The people have spoken. We now know ALL the facts. The lies that have been spouted out to con the people have been unearthed.
It's time for us to be sensible and DEMAND the following to prevent total catastrophe:
- A third referendum on Brexit, NOT a second
- A rerun of the 1924 general election IMMEDIATELY
- A people's vote on International Car of the Year 2019
- A formal recount of the 2009 Crufts Hound Group Judging
Etc, etc, forever and ever, amen...
It's time for us to be sensible and DEMAND the following to prevent total catastrophe:
- A third referendum on Brexit, NOT a second
- A rerun of the 1924 general election IMMEDIATELY
- A people's vote on International Car of the Year 2019
- A formal recount of the 2009 Crufts Hound Group Judging
Etc, etc, forever and ever, amen...
saaby93 said:
There could be a 4 vote referendum with 2 leaves and and 2 stays
1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
christ ! have they expanded into china as well since the referendum 1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea
pistonheads2018 said:
toppstuff said:
The world is already laughing at us.
Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face.
Laughing at us for using a binary question to decide on a complex set of possible outcomes.
Much of the world already judges us as morons. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt. A second referendum would do that.
Ploughing on regardless and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
1. Not true.Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face.
Laughing at us for using a binary question to decide on a complex set of possible outcomes.
Much of the world already judges us as morons. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt. A second referendum would do that.
Ploughing on regardless and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
2. Speak for yourself.
Ghibli said:
How can this not be true when we look at our own MPs as a useless bunch that can't even organise an exit deal that their own people are happy with.
Quite easily. Some people might be laughing, most people will be indifferent, some people will be very supportive of our decision to leave the EU.Helicopter123 said:
Lord Heseltine very well respected. I think those who dismiss his argument simply because they disagree with his hypothesis do themselves no favours.
He isn’t exactly coming into this from a neutral position now is he. You do have form for posting up the most vocal Remainers first time round and when they are wheeled out on the telly or radio put up “good speech”
It’s like your Crisp salesman.
chow pan toon said:
Seeing as parliament is manifestly incapable of making a decision I think it is entirely reasonable to ask the country to do it for them. I find it odd that so many on the leave side seem so terrified of having another referendum, if the decision is the same then hard brexit it is.
It is odd that leave voters don't want another referendum. If a no deal hard Brexit is what the people want? That would be the result of the referendum. There wouldn't be any of this "I didn't vote for this type of Brexit" and no one would be able to complain.chow pan toon said:
Seeing as parliament is manifestly incapable of making a decision I think it is entirely reasonable to ask the country to do it for them. I find it odd that so many on the leave side seem so terrified of having another referendum, if the decision is the same then hard brexit it is.
no it isntIf the decision is the same we still need to find a way of exiting, while keeping border arrangements.
A trade deal would be useful and should help with the border issue
i.e. back to the deal on the table
saaby93 said:
no it isnt
If the decision is the same we still need to find a way of exiting, while keeping border arrangements.
A trade deal would be useful and should help with the border issue
i.e. back to the deal on the table
No deal is the only thing that the Goverment can guarantee. If the decision is the same we still need to find a way of exiting, while keeping border arrangements.
A trade deal would be useful and should help with the border issue
i.e. back to the deal on the table
pubrunner said:
On what basis, would the winner of a three-way vote be chosen ?
Preferential voting. It;s not rocket science.Useful overview of the choices and challenges re a further referendum here. https://www.youtube.com/embed/TZ86V-Wa3yM
Coolbanana said:
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
If faced with WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain, what percentage would comprise the 'winning' vote ?Anyone voting for WTO or Negotiated Deal, are still voting to Leave; unless Remain achieved over 50% of the total votes, I don't see how it could be said that they have 'won' the referendum in a 'reasonable & democratic' way.
You said that "it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want" - but whilst the two Leave subsets might individually achieve a lower vote than Remain, collectively, they might be greater - in which case, the majority of the vote would still be for Leave.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff