How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

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Discussion

alfie2244

8,301 posts

124 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
saaby93 said:
What is james dyson saying? For or against the deal?
who cares he is nothing more than an opportunist who cares not a jot for the uk
Why is Bath's Royal United Hospital’s calling its new cancer centre the "Dyson Cancer Centre"?

toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
City_boy said:
toppstuff said:
In fairness, the way that brexiters reject any boss expressing legitimate concerns as "project fear" is a bit much.

People like Dyson offer some balance, so I am ok with that even though I think his vacuum cleaners suck.
‘In fairness’ the way that certain Remsiners make blanket statements that are demonstrably wrong (and then try and shift the goalposts when they are found out) is somewhat boring.
Given the "Project Fear" BS the leave side relentlessly throws out in response to any concern, I think that's being rather hypocritical.

Coolbanana

1,647 posts

136 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Piha said:
Theresa May! Boris Johnson! Jaxon Rees Mogg! James Dyson! David Davies! Nigel Farage!

Your Brexit took one hell of a beating yesterday!

But today is another day so let's see what the politicians have for us today. I hope that the Remain brigades haven't started their fightback too early. I'm a little concerned that we might galvanise the various Leave factions into one coherent group that will vote TM's deal through.
That has been what I have long thought would be the case; Team Leave would reach the point when their Cause was defeated in terms of a No Deal, a Full Brexit, and rally around the only Brexit option open to them that could have some wriggle room for a Brexit that wasn't as soft as the Norway option.

TM's Deal is their best shot unless they, like some Remainers, want to go down the gambling route with a 2nd Referendum for the all or nothing prize.

Team Leave was finally defeated some weeks ago and BJ was conspicuously the only Jolly Brexiteer still fighting hard yesterday but his efforts merely highlighted that he is done for - no support came from his fellow Leavers, JRM, DD et al relatively silent. BJ was heckled and made to look a fool. Do they have anything left in the tank for the next 5 days? Anything at all? Or has their Fall finally ended with a hard thud.

Parliament have taken back control, as I suspected they ultimately would and despite some on here who still have an amazing Faith that the current default No Deal option could still be invoked, the path to halting Article 50 and ensuring all legislation required to cancel a No Deal is well and truly in motion now.

Farage, for all his vileness, is not a stupid man - he is a shrewd player of the game. It is very telling that he chose yesterday to announce his abandonment of UKIP so that he can strike out and create a new Party - he has conceded that Brexit is done for and sees an opportunity to galvanise Leavers who are still committed to the Cause in a new venture, a re-organising and re-structuring; start over, think again.

Brexit is all but a corpse that will be morbidly displayed and kicked about in the coming weeks.

Leavers only Hope is to support the dreaded TM Deal or accept a Norway solution. If they do not join forces in support of either of those, then either Parliament will engineer a Remain Victory sans the need for a 2nd Referendum, or the country will go back to the Ballot and the gamble will be invoked once more.







City_boy

93 posts

1 month

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Given the "Project Fear" BS the leave side relentlessly throws out in response to any concern, I think that's being rather hypocritical.
You certainly would know a lot about hypocrisy.

JuanCarlosFandango

576 posts

7 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Piha said:
Got to love Brexiteer logic.

As soon as they don't like a simple question they bring someones nationality into the argument.
What was the simple question?


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Piha

506 posts

28 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
Brexit is all but a corpse that will be morbidly displayed and kicked about in the coming weeks.
cool

powerstroke

7,648 posts

96 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
The organisers called it the Peoples March, how many turned up varies dependent on who you listen to or what you read.

Ping the organisers an email and they'll delight in answering your queries: info@peoples-vote.uk
Once you remove all the millionaires , rentamob and crustys , not many peoples !!

Camoradi

2,712 posts

192 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Yesterday's votes gave politician's the luxury of displaying their unhappiness without any real risk to their positions. The posturing during the debate was cringeworthy. When the withdrawal agreement vote comes next week and it really matters, conservative MPs will have the real prospect of a general election and either losing their seats or being in opposition for the next five years, with comrade Corbyn steering the ship. I think this will focus minds and the vote will be very close.

Piha

506 posts

28 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
don'tbesilly said:
The organisers called it the Peoples March, how many turned up varies dependent on who you listen to or what you read.

Ping the organisers an email and they'll delight in answering your queries: info@peoples-vote.uk
Once you remove all the millionaires , rentamob and crustys , not many peoples !!
When is the pro Brexit march?

Greg66

8,182 posts

114 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I think they're going great!

Not as a way to agree a set of sensible terms for our future relationship with our largest trading partner and closest neighbours. They're a dead loss on that score.

But they are doing a brilliant job of showing just how arrogant and incompetent our political class are, and just how slavish their devotion is to this project which for half a century they have claimed was little more than a trading arrangement.

They have finally been forced to concede that it's a political project to build a country called Europe. This was not widely acknowledged right up until the referendum.

There's no telling how this will play out in the long run but one option is well and truly off the table for ever: the option of politicians quietly dismantling our democracy while pretending that it's just a trade deal and we have no other options anyway.
The Dangerous Elk said:
How many MILLIONS have you invested in the UK.

Well done, the first "Wally Post" of the new pages




Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Wednesday 5th December 08:44
City_boy said:
‘In fairness’ the way that certain Remsiners make blanket statements that are demonstrably wrong (and then try and shift the goalposts when they are found out) is somewhat boring.
Always nice to see returning bannees making contributions.

John145

1,872 posts

92 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
F1GTRUeno said:
Given that sovereignty of Parliament just means one group of people telling us proles what to do, does it really matter who's telling us beyond misplaced nationalism/'patriotism'.

We're all humans after all and we're certainly all European.
Do we have mass protests across the country whereby the head of state threatens to declare a state of emergency because of a simple change to fuel tax policy?
Do we fire people from their careers because they work too many hours/too hard?
Do we have seasonal working across all industries where it is expected that output drops for 3 months of the year?
Do we have net emigration and brain drain?
Do we have a far right wing government?

I'm really confused by "we're certainly all European". This is such a vague term as to be meaningless. Each country in my experience is distinctly different with people of very different values across all parts of their lives.

The above questions express quite simply how different Britain is to the rest of the European countries.

Now this is not a reason to vote remain or leave.

kayc

3,695 posts

157 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I think they're going great!

Not as a way to agree a set of sensible terms for our future relationship with our largest trading partner and closest neighbours. They're a dead loss on that score.

But they are doing a brilliant job of showing just how arrogant and incompetent our political class are, and just how slavish their devotion is to this project which for half a century they have claimed was little more than a trading arrangement.

They have finally been forced to concede that it's a political project to build a country called Europe. This was not widely acknowledged right up until the referendum.

There's no telling how this will play out in the long run but one option is well and truly off the table for ever: the option of politicians quietly dismantling our democracy while pretending that it's just a trade deal and we have no other options anyway.
Very well put..its amazing how our politicians have slowly given all the power to the EU over the last 45 years...I actually found it hard watching European leaders on Remembrance day trying to show respect to the millions that fell for freedom twice ..they now try and fk the country that gave them that ..respect should be more than laying a few poppies.

gooner1

4,321 posts

115 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
citizensm1th said:
saaby93 said:
What is james dyson saying? For or against the deal?
who cares he is nothing more than an opportunist who cares not a jot for the uk
Why is Bath's Royal United Hospital’s calling its new cancer centre the "Dyson Cancer Centre"?


Is it because he personally donated £4 million towards the £9 million that has so far been
raised.
£9 million a number that incidentally matches that spent by HMG on Remain propaganda.
Isn't Maths weird. smile

Edited by gooner1 on Wednesday 5th December 09:53

saaby93

24,373 posts

114 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Piha said:
powerstroke said:
don'tbesilly said:
The organisers called it the Peoples March, how many turned up varies dependent on who you listen to or what you read.

Ping the organisers an email and they'll delight in answering your queries: info@peoples-vote.uk
Once you remove all the millionaires , rentamob and crustys , not many peoples !!
When is the pro Brexit march?
The march wasnt pro or anti Brexit.
it was for a second vote

paulrockliffe

7,632 posts

163 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Piha said:
Coolbanana said:
Democracy is all but a corpse that will be morbidly displayed and kicked about in the coming weeks.
cool

toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Piha said:
Coolbanana said:
Democracy is all but a corpse that will be morbidly displayed and kicked about in the coming weeks.
cool
No, it won't be like that !

We will have a "People's Vote" !! It will be a celebration of democracy. Leavers and Remainers will come together in a climate of mutual respect, understanding and appreciation. There will be workshops where we learn about each others perspectives in a safe, supportive environment.

Polling stations will have volunteers giving free hugs to people to lift their spirits.

We will all have flowers in our hair and dance the dance of our common humanity.

The People's Vote will be the time when we celebrate the things that bind us, respect a range of point of views, but above all come together in mutual recognition of our shared humanity.

It's going to be lovely.


Tuna

8,912 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
Farage, for all his vileness, is not a stupid man - he is a shrewd player of the game. It is very telling that he chose yesterday to announce his abandonment of UKIP so that he can strike out and create a new Party - he has conceded that Brexit is done for and sees an opportunity to galvanise Leavers who are still committed to the Cause in a new venture, a re-organising and re-structuring; start over, think again.
Not sure I can agree with your interpretation of his motives. Spurred on by Brexit, the current UKIP leadership have gone full raving monster loony party, with a slight hint of racist nutter. At this point in the process, *any* association with the current UKIP party will destroy a politician's credibility.

For sure it may be a cynical move, but politically anyone wanting to contribute to the debate right now needs to cut UKIP off at the knees. It means there's no party that 'represents' Leave, but there should be a clear distinction between wanting to leave the political construct and the extremist nonsense currently being encouraged by UKIP's leadership.

alfaspecial

453 posts

76 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Our self interested political class are doing their very best to sabotage the will of the electorate............

This graph illustrates referendum results by party

source: https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservat...


This file shows remain/leave results by CONSTITUENCY for England, Scotland & Wales (NI has different electoral system)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b71SDKPFbk...

You can sort by constituency to see how 'your' area voted.
Interestingly of the 632 constituencies the split was LEAVE, 64:36,* far higher than the 52:48 of the actual referendum



May's 'deal' (£39bn, loss of sovereignty / backstop etc) I think, is pretty unpopular in the country
Quite what will happen if the clean Brexit that we were promised (David Cameron Chatham House Speech etc) is delayed / watered down
/ 'put back to the people' - I just don't know. But it would be a pretty bad day for democracy.



*403/632 LEAVE 230/632 REMAIN

Tuna

8,912 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Piha said:
Got to love Brexiteer logic.

As soon as they don't like a simple question they bring someones nationality into the argument.
Are you seriously going to claim that either side does not selectively quote sources of 'information' depending on whether they support their point of view or not?

It's remarkable how many people on here think that quoting someone without considering their motives and context puts a full stop under the point. There's not a single person in this whole debate that doesn't have a position that they're trying to justify. I'd rather see some analysis and insight than calls to authority. How many times have we been told what Airbus thinks as though they somehow represent the best interests of the UK?

Unless you're Braddo, who apparently believes that only one side has the monopoly on "the facts" and that there is no other perspective than his own. smile

Puggit

40,471 posts

184 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
My prediction? Both Labour and Conservative votes will fall apart spectacularly if Brexit is overturned by parliament. New parties will be here soon.

Mrs Puggit pretends that the electorate voted for more Europe in each general election because they voted for the major parties - when there was no real choice. There will be new parties to replace the old - because the old will not be trusted.

Brexit may be averted in the short term. The UK political landscape would never be the same afterwards.