How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
alfie2244 said:
Derek Smith said:
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
Except they bottled out of making the decision themselves and delegated to us to decide.....and we did....you may not like it but we voted to leave the EU and all it entails and it would be undemocratic not to do so.You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
Nickgnome said:
alfie2244 said:
Derek Smith said:
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
Except they bottled out of making the decision themselves and delegated to us to decide.....and we did....you may not like it but we voted to leave the EU and all it entails and it would be undemocratic not to do so.You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
don'tbesilly said:
Looks like May is having McDonalds again tonight
Macron/Varadkar just shot down May's pledge to get the legal text of the WA changed, it was a polite 'jog on'.
Dodds is not going to be best pleased at May's failure to stand up to her pledge.
Why wouldnt Dodds be pleased? Arent they trying for remain as per their votersMacron/Varadkar just shot down May's pledge to get the legal text of the WA changed, it was a polite 'jog on'.
Dodds is not going to be best pleased at May's failure to stand up to her pledge.
Only trouble is their stance could lead to ERG Brexit
Whatever "side" you are on, not many people could say with any honesty that the way the MP's have acted (all of them whatever colour) has been trustworthy.
Even if you get what you want (remain or leave) you have to accept that the politicians are mostly trying to overturn the expressed vote of the Uk population....they might do it to you next time ?
Whoever may Win, but what will that cost be in political stability ?
Even if you get what you want (remain or leave) you have to accept that the politicians are mostly trying to overturn the expressed vote of the Uk population....they might do it to you next time ?
Whoever may Win, but what will that cost be in political stability ?
Derek Smith said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I would like to see May pressed a bit more on what she meant by no Brexit if the deal was rejected. Is she really going to fully and unconditionally revoke Article 50 (as per the recent ECJ ruling)? After "no deal is better than a bad deal" and "Brexit means Brexit" she would be committing political suicide not just for herself but for her party for a generation.
And that's assuming she even could get such a move through parliament dominated by MPs from both major parties who are committed to withdrawal.
A referendum would at least maintain the pretence of caring what people think even if it would be a complete sham. Simply saying we are staying in would be out and out dictatorship.
If the elected MPs decided to pull A50 and so have the UK remain in the EU it would be them complying with their duty if they felt that was in the best interests of the UK. We live in a democracy and not a dictatorship. We vote in MPs to make our decisions for us. There is a majority of MPs who think it is best for the UK to remain. And that's assuming she even could get such a move through parliament dominated by MPs from both major parties who are committed to withdrawal.
A referendum would at least maintain the pretence of caring what people think even if it would be a complete sham. Simply saying we are staying in would be out and out dictatorship.
You might not like it, and the tone of your posts hints that you don't, but it is what we've got.
ks to get the job?I’m honestly surprised.
Murph7355 said:
Rumours that she's suggested a start date for the trade arrangement rather than an end date for the backstop as a means of fudging.
If true, she is truly mental.
Peston just said as much and was as perplexed as you.If true, she is truly mental.
Spectacular failures from May, unbelievably 200 Tory MP's still have faith/trust in her.
The Dangerous Elk said:
desolate said:
DUP very much into hard core Brexit.
Maybe, but in truth they are representing their constituents expressed wish unlike a lot of Remain MP's who are pissing it up a wall..The DUP represent a small faction of fanatical protastanism. By the end of January they will likely be irrelavent.
Murph7355 said:
Rumours that she's suggested a start date for the trade arrangement rather than an end date for the backstop as a means of fudging.
If true, she is truly mental.
Indeed. The EU's offer for the trade arrangement will basically be "bend over", and then it'll be our choice to 'voluntarily' enter the backstop. If true, she is truly mental.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
We elect MPs to represent our views and our interests.
Representative democracy means that MPs use their judgement to make decisions which they judge to be in the best interests of their constituents.Edmund Burke - "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
JuanCarlosFandango said:
We elected them to hold a referendum on EU membership ....
Don't try to pretend you're referring to anything more than UKIP voters and a minority of Tory voters when you say that. In no way was Brexit anywhere near a national debate when Cameron called the referendum.Nickgnome said:
The Dangerous Elk said:
desolate said:
DUP very much into hard core Brexit.
Maybe, but in truth they are representing their constituents expressed wish unlike a lot of Remain MP's who are pissing it up a wall..The DUP represent a small faction of fanatical protastanism. By the end of January they will likely be irrelavent.
The DUP are representing their constituents......The ones that vote for them. They will still get the votes and still get the seats they have for the most part no matter how hatefull and self serving they may be.
B'stard Child said:
Elysium said:
I agree. The terms in front of us currently are 'May's deal' or 'no-deal'. As it stands, both would need to be options for a referendum.
It's an easy 2-part question:
1. Leave or Remain
2. If we leave - Mays deal or no deal.
If leave wins, we proceed with the majority decision in respect of question 2.
OK so parliament can't vote for "Mays Deal" doesn't want "No Deal" and throws it back to the people to sort it It's an easy 2-part question:
1. Leave or Remain
2. If we leave - Mays deal or no deal.
If leave wins, we proceed with the majority decision in respect of question 2.
Now with this two part referendum "plan" I have a question
First stage votes "Leave" or "Remain"
So lets say nothing has changed and the first stage gets the same result
52% Leave
48% Remain
Second Stage - "Mays deal" or "no deal"
I would guess a large proportion of the "Remain" First Choice would not have a second choice of "no deal" so are going to go for "Mays Deal" add to that any of the leave votes that also are convinced by Mays Deal and even in the event of Leave again we still get "Mays Deal"
Isn't that where we are now and why Parliament have their knickers in a twist??
"No Deal" is never going anything other than a box on the ballot paper unless the second choices of the losing first stage are removed from the equation
I appreciate I don't have much of an understanding of how 2 stage referendums or political voting works
A two stage referendum would be totally fair:
1. First decide if we want to leave or not in the knowledge that there are only two options for leaving available.
2. Then everyone, leave or remain, gets to state their preferred option if the decision is to leave.
I don’t know what would win, but we will find out what people really want, whereas at the moment everyone is just guessing.
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