How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
Indeed.
I can’t believe that people actually think that we spent 2 years negotiating and ending up with the backstop (best solution apparently) and that we would also at the same time consider no deal which would mean throwing everything out and not even worrying about Ireland which is the whole reason it took two years.
Absolutely mental.
"No deal" doesn't mean 'not even worrying about Ireland'. That's bullsI can’t believe that people actually think that we spent 2 years negotiating and ending up with the backstop (best solution apparently) and that we would also at the same time consider no deal which would mean throwing everything out and not even worrying about Ireland which is the whole reason it took two years.
Absolutely mental.
t which is repeated time and time again on here.ash73 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:sherbertdip said:
wisbech said:
Interesting, sobering and a glimpse of reality that more people should be aware of, too late though!Rogers said:
My real objection is to the style of argument espoused both by the pro “no deal” Right and by
Downing Street which says that no other model but their own is a potentially legitimate
interpretation of the Will of the People – which evidently only they can properly discern.
Both fervent leavers and fervent remainers as well as No 10 seem to me now to seek to
delegitimise a priori every version of the world they don’t support.
It's a very good critique of the mistakes the government has made - from the timing of A50 to the opaque negotiations - something that has been a consistent issue with May's leadership.Downing Street which says that no other model but their own is a potentially legitimate
interpretation of the Will of the People – which evidently only they can properly discern.
Both fervent leavers and fervent remainers as well as No 10 seem to me now to seek to
delegitimise a priori every version of the world they don’t support.
Rogers said:
And even yesterday morning I listened to a Shadow Cabinet Member promising, with a straight
face, that, even after a General Election, there would be time for Labour to negotiate a completely
different deal – INCLUDING a full trade deal, which would replicate all the advantages of the Single
Market and Customs Union. And all before March 30th. I assume they haven’t yet stopped
laughing in Brussels.
Certainly Labour's shameful (lack of) opposition has contributed to a situation where our government's mistakes have gone without serious examination, other than nonsense sloganeering on both sides.face, that, even after a General Election, there would be time for Labour to negotiate a completely
different deal – INCLUDING a full trade deal, which would replicate all the advantages of the Single
Market and Customs Union. And all before March 30th. I assume they haven’t yet stopped
laughing in Brussels.
More than anything, he's right that this process is going to go on for years - and all of the "People's Vote" and "GE" and "Rescind A50" advocates are wrong to think that any of the choices we make will instantly snap the UK back into some sense of normalcy. None of the options on the table actually stops the negotiation, the compromises and the political upsets. Not in the short term and probably not in the medium term.
Given the care he takes to analyse the situation, I'm disappointed he skipped over the wider implications of trying to Remain. He says this:
Rogers said:
And the “people’s voters”. I confess I deplore the term itself: they want a second referendum with
remain on the ballot - for which one can make a case, given the dismal place we have now ended
up, and given possible Parliamentary paralysis, but must surely understand the huge further
alienation that would engender amongst those who will think that, yet again, their views are being
ignored until they conform.
But I feel there is also a serious issue around the consequences both within the EU and Globally of trying to 'sneak back in'. Here, he's a little coy and that's a shame.remain on the ballot - for which one can make a case, given the dismal place we have now ended
up, and given possible Parliamentary paralysis, but must surely understand the huge further
alienation that would engender amongst those who will think that, yet again, their views are being
ignored until they conform.
Unfortunately, the fantasy 'get out of jail' options prevent anyone (and our political classes in particular) from being honest that we've dug a hole, and that no subsequent choices are going to avoid a lot of serious work. Many Remainers on here assumed that as I've been a proponent of 'getting on with it' since the Referendum, I must be one of those evil Brexitists - but the truth is that it's simply a recognition that we can't "half ass" our way out of this mess. A compromise arrangement is as toxic (if not more so) than facing up to the reality that we've got to learn to fight our corner after starting the brawl.
Certainly, we need to find the negotiators and political leaders who can face up to the task ahead. I said early on that all this democracy was going to bring a form of political Darwinism as we saw how well (or badly) our representatives faced up to the job. It's a shame the dinosaurs are still roaming parliament, refusing to succumb to the tar pit and claiming in various ways that in one leap they'll be free.
And despite some great analysis, we're still in a position where people are unwilling to set out realistic strategies for both sides to consider, for fear that they may give the 'other side' an advantage and accidentally not get the result they personally want. At best only half of our negotiators are actually negotiating for us..
pistonheads2018 said:
p1stonhead said:
Indeed.
I can’t believe that people actually think that we spent 2 years negotiating and ending up with the backstop (best solution apparently) and that we would also at the same time consider no deal which would mean throwing everything out and not even worrying about Ireland which is the whole reason it took two years.
Absolutely mental.
"No deal" doesn't mean 'not even worrying about Ireland'. That's bullsI can’t believe that people actually think that we spent 2 years negotiating and ending up with the backstop (best solution apparently) and that we would also at the same time consider no deal which would mean throwing everything out and not even worrying about Ireland which is the whole reason it took two years.
Absolutely mental.
t which is repeated time and time again on here.Why do we currently have the ludicrous backstop if not to protect the current status of the border at all cost?
Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 14th December 11:22
p1stonhead said:
What does it mean then? What would no deal do for the biggest elephant in the room which is Ireland?
Why do we currently have the ludicrous backstop if not to protect the current status of the border at all cost?
It's been discussed on here many times.Why do we currently have the ludicrous backstop if not to protect the current status of the border at all cost?
Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 14th December 11:22
p1stonhead said:
What does it mean then? What would no deal do for the biggest elephant in the room which is Ireland?
That is up to the EU, it is their red line not ours. We are happy with free trade/movement and it is not us talking about closed borders, terrorist uprisings and building border posts topped with machine guns to protect their protectionist super state in the making..
Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Friday 14th December 11:25
The Dangerous Elk said:
That is up to the EU, it is their red line not ours. We are happy with free trade/movement and it is not us talking about closed borders, terrorist uprisings and building border posts topped with machine guns to protect their protectionist super state in the making.
No it’s not their problem because if a border goes up for any reason it isn’t acceptable to us. Therefore we need to ensure it doesn’t.
But the EU need ‘something’ to be in place after we decided to leave. So us leaving means between us we need to sort it out.
Hence the backstop.
p1stonhead said:
No it’s not their problem because if a border goes up for any reason it isn’t acceptable to us.
Therefore we need to ensure it doesn’t.
But the EU need ‘something’ to be in place after we decided to leave. So us leaving means between us we need to sort it out.
Hence the backstop.
Are you suggesting that the EU will build a hard border?Therefore we need to ensure it doesn’t.
But the EU need ‘something’ to be in place after we decided to leave. So us leaving means between us we need to sort it out.
Hence the backstop.
pistonheads2018 said:
p1stonhead said:
No it’s not their problem because if a border goes up for any reason it isn’t acceptable to us.
Therefore we need to ensure it doesn’t.
But the EU need ‘something’ to be in place after we decided to leave. So us leaving means between us we need to sort it out.
Hence the backstop.
Are you suggesting that the EU will build a hard border?Therefore we need to ensure it doesn’t.
But the EU need ‘something’ to be in place after we decided to leave. So us leaving means between us we need to sort it out.
Hence the backstop.
Do you really think there is another solution after all of this time of trying to figure it out by EVERYONE?
There isnt.
Tuna said:
Certainly, we need to find the negotiators and political leaders who can face up to the task ahead.
This is a similar task to trying to find a bunch of mathematicians to make 2 + 2 = 5.Sure, a 'better" team could probably get a few minor advantages in the legal framework, but the simple fact is we are not 'bargaining from a position of strength" and never have been.......
Max_Torque said:
This is a similar task to trying to find a bunch of mathematicians to make 2 + 2 = 5.
Sure, a 'better" team could probably get a few minor advantages in the legal framework, but the simple fact is we are not 'bargaining from a position of strength" and never have been.......
We do undoubtedly have strengths to negotiate from, however May never tried to do so, even her desire was to Remain.Sure, a 'better" team could probably get a few minor advantages in the legal framework, but the simple fact is we are not 'bargaining from a position of strength" and never have been.......
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff