How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[Mrr T]

pistonheads2018 said:

So do you think that we will build a hard border?

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

[s2art]

Mrr T said:

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

The WTO disagrees with you.

[don'tbesilly]

p1stonhead said:

don'tbesilly said:

p1stonhead said:

ash73 said:

Tuna said:

There are no right or easy choices - it's all difficult choices and hard decisions, and that's been obvious from the day we got the Referendum result. Time we faced up to it.

It feels like a game of chess where there are three or four moves and I don't like ANY of them. Very difficult to see a way out of this.

I think May's deal is now dead, she needs to say so and put some serious thought into how to best use the time left. If she still thinks a deal is possible the EFTA option needs fleshing out. Otherwise, what are the (detailed) consequences of no deal, are we actually going to do it, if not do we cancel article 50, or do we delay it and do a second referendum.

I'm wondering if May might resign after this disasterous trip, it could not have gone any worse.

There are reports coming out that TM was asked multiple times by Merkel yesterday 'what do you want?' in terms of her coming back to see them.

She couldnt answer. Parliament sent her for 'some' reason and she couldnt articulate it. Because no one knows. She ALREADY AGREED the deal she was there to talk about changing in some way.

An apprently she even once said 'Brexit Means Brexit' to them.

I mean....

May volunteered to go back to the EU when she admitted her deal would be voted down on the Tuesday.

May has acted to all intents and purposes on her own since she chose not to proceed with the vote, the Cabinet probably demanded it but they (Cabinet) have accepted collective responsibility.

One has to ask if May is forced to/offers to resign, where does that leave her cabinet?

I agree with that.

But she still couldn’t actually articulate why she was actually there.

I don’t see how she can continue now either despite the vote this week.

I agree with that as well.

May made lots of pledges/promises to MP's prior to the Leadership challenge.
May emerged on the back of resounding cheers from 200 of her own MP's
May made the same pledges/promises on the steps of No10 after the vote on her leadership that she'd made prior to the vote.

May went to Brussels to negotiate changes to the legal text of the WA, that what she stated she'd do on Monday 10th and Tuesday 11th, she said the same to her MP's before the leadership challenge, and after.

According to reports she didn't talk about the legal text in the WA, but the trade agreement in the PD which has no legal binding, she has by all accounts not improved anything, but has in fact made them worse.

It beggars belief that the Tories, all Tories are not calling for her resignation.

May is an embarrassment to the Tories, and a walking joke to the EU.
The EU want her to continue because of the latter, many want her gone for the former.

[Nickgnome]

I'd blame the voters.

They (We) created the shortlists, chose the candidates and then voted them into parliament.

Then moan when it all goes horribly wrong.

or

Oh, look all my workforce that I employed are lazy and feckless and my company is about to go bust but it's not my fault!!

Amazing

[p1stonhead]

Mrr T said:

pistonheads2018 said:

So do you think that we will build a hard border?

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

Paraphrased from the '9 lessons' article posted earlier;

Before considering all of those lovely FTA's, why do we need them?
People (only mental hard brexiters to be fair) are advocating leaving our biggest FTA in favour of WTO rules. But we want to negotiate FTA's with other countries around the world instead of wanting to use WTO rules?

Are WTO rules desireable or not?

[Mrr T]

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

The WTO disagrees with you.

In what way?

[anonymous-user]

p1stonhead said:

amusingduck said:

essayer said:

90 days maximum stay in the EU per visit without a visa. Nice.

I wonder what kind of reaction we can expect from the dozens of people that will affect

What about the millions who live there now?

It's far more than dozens - I've not seen the questions but anyone with a moderate criminal record will have to apply for a visa if it's anything like the US version.

Plus those older people who spend a good deal of the winter months in and out of warmer climes.

If we aren't careful Tommy Robinson won't be able to leave the country at all!

[don'tbesilly]

Nickgnome said:

I'd blame the voters.

They (We) created the shortlists, chose the candidates and then voted them into parliament.

Then moan when it all goes horribly wrong.

or

Oh, look all my workforce that I employed are lazy and feckless and my company is about to go bust but it's not my fault!!

Amazing

I'll guess you didn't vote for May & the Tories in the GE of 2017.

As a businessman you make quite an exception Nick.

[s2art]

Mrr T said:

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

The WTO disagrees with you.

In what way?

The WTO doesnt insist on hard borders. The UK (and Eire) has stated that mechanisms are available to meet WTO requirements.

[gooner1]

Nickgnome said:

I'd blame the voters.

They (We) created the shortlists, chose the candidates and then voted them into parliament.

Then moan when it all goes horribly wrong.

or

Oh, look all my workforce that I employed are lazy and feckless and my company is about to go bust but it's not my fault!!

Amazing

I couldn't find any Polish candidates to vote for.

[Dr Jekyll]

p1stonhead said:

Paraphrased from the '9 lessons' article posted earlier;

Before considering all of those lovely FTA's, why do we need them?
People (only mental hard brexiters to be fair) are advocating leaving our biggest FTA in favour of WTO rules. But we want to negotiate FTA's with other countries around the world instead of wanting to use WTO rules?

Are WTO rules desireable or not?

It's WTO rules that will allow us to negotiate FTAs. An FTA is a bit better than default WTO, but what we have with the EU isn't an FTA. It's a custom union, dictating our trade policy worldwide so denying us the freedom WTO would otherwise offer us, which is reason we are leaving.

[amgmcqueen]

May should stop humiliating herself and face up to the facts that the only option left is no deal-WTO.

The UK also needs to adopt a scorched earth policy as we leave.

[Tuna]

p1stonhead said:

Paraphrased from the '9 lessons' article posted earlier;

Before considering all of those lovely FTA's, why do we need them?
People (only mental hard brexiters to be fair) are advocating leaving our biggest FTA in favour of WTO rules. But we want to negotiate FTA's with other countries around the world instead of wanting to use WTO rules?

Are WTO rules desireable or not?

Paraphrasing badly I'm afraid. He specifically said you can't argue both that trading on WTO rules is a good thing and that we need to exit the EU to make wonderful free trade deals. He didn't say WTO in itself was a bad thing:

Rogers said:

It is fine and legitimate to argue that - especially in the current obvious absence of an ability to drive
forward major multilateral trade liberalisation at a time when the US has manifestly ceased to be
interested in it, and may indeed be setting about deliberalising trade, undermining the World Trade
Organisation and regretting having allowed China into it – the UK should aim at a global lattice work
of bilateral and plurilateral free trade deals.

...

Indeed, the greatest reason to be a passionate free trader - which I am - is surely precisely that: it
curtails the ability of myopic politicians to erect barriers to commerce in the name of sovereignty
and national preference against non-national producers.

People tend to skip through long documents like that and just read the bits that agree with them.

Edited by Tuna on Friday 14th December 13:15

[Puggit]

C5 has wheeled the lip readers in: https://twitter.com/5_News/status/1073552684026945...

[BigMon]

amgmcqueen said:

May should stop humiliating herself and face up to the facts that the only option left is no deal-WTO.

The UK also needs to adopt a scorched earth policy as we leave.

That sounds marvellous (not).

However, in the real world it might not be the best of ideas.

[The Dangerous Elk]

gooner1 said:

paul.deitch said:

It's the political car crash of the decade! Just embarrassing for the Uk.

Hardly surprising considering who's driving and those navigating.

or who built this road May chose to/has to/always wanted to travel down.

[TTwiggy]

Puggit said:

C5 has wheeled the lip readers in: https://twitter.com/5_News/status/1073552684026945...

He's not wrong either.

[alfie2244]

TTwiggy said:

Puggit said:

C5 has wheeled the lip readers in: https://twitter.com/5_News/status/1073552684026945...

He's not wrong either.

Is she is on the verge of blowing a gasket?

[p1stonhead]

TTwiggy said:

Puggit said:

C5 has wheeled the lip readers in: https://twitter.com/5_News/status/1073552684026945...

He's not wrong either.

He's spot on.

[Mrr T]

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

The UK has a choice. It can either a) put in place the same border processes which handle goods currently entering the UK from outside the EU or b )it can be in breach of WTO rules.

Being in breach of WTO rules might make negotiation of all these new FTA a touch difficult.

The WTO disagrees with you.

In what way?

The WTO doesnt insist on hard borders. The UK (and Eire) has stated that mechanisms are available to meet WTO requirements.

You really really have never understood some basic concepts.

I have never suggested WTO rules require hard borders.

WTO rules require that unless you have a FTA you must treat all members the same. So no FTA with the EU and no border in Ireland the UK must drop all border controls with the rest of the world or be in breach of the WTO rules.

As for the UK and Irish government saying they are ready to have border controls in place, you should cut down on the pills.