How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[mx5nut]

Tuna said:

Simple question for you. If there is a second referendum, and it returns a Leave vote - what then?

Then we'll know what form the people want our departure to take and can get on with it without the various Leave factions bickering between themselves.

It would be undemocratic not to add a "call the whole thing off" option and madness to offer a "no deal" choice, so expect some tears from the more extreme Brexiters.

[Crackie]

Helicopter123 said:

Not all leave voters are racists to be fair.

To be fair, neither are all remainer voters.

[braddo]

Crackie said:

Tuna said:

Looks like we're getting to the weekend "no new news" stage, so I'll let the weekend warriors take over.

Bingo points for

1) It's extra democracy
2) We didn't know what we're voting for
3) We have new information
4) Leavers are racist
5) The only way out is <X> (insert plan of your choice - A50, GE, 2nd Ref, becoming a republic of China etc.)
6) But what about the Irish Border?
7) Someone is a quisling
8) The other side all think <Y> (insert ridiculous generalisation of your choice)
9) Big red bus
10) Why aren't you doing <Z> - it's what you voted for? (insert choice of action that is plainly not what they voted for)
11) Obviously this meets the definition of Leaving
12) You're a sockpuppet / stooge / previously banned poster
13) Good post

Good post.

With respect to Tuna (ETA I mean being respectful towards - it might be ambiguous!), It's just listing out the trend and then predicting the trend won't change over the course of a weekend...

With the vote on the deal seemingly delayed until late January, not sure there is much that can change between now and then. Other than brexiters slowly realising that the game is up - your cheerleaders, that were appointed to the highest roles in the Cabinet by PM May, have deserted you so that they can snipe from the sidelines and blame someone else.

They are selling snake oil and continue to attempt to not be found out.

Edited by braddo on Saturday 15th December 22:47

[anonymous-user]

Tuna said:

House!

Simple question for you. If there is a second referendum, and it returns a Leave vote - what then?

It won’t be a leave choice as such
It’ll be a choice between Mays widely hated & pointless softer than soft Brexit
Or stay in EU as we are now
Win win for remain

[Trolleys Thank You]

Tuna said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

"The desperation..." Yes your post reeks of it.

You can't undermine democracy with democracy. The people are entitled to change their minds. A referendum is now inevitable and in the best interests of British people.

House!

Simple question for you. If there is a second referendum, and it returns a Leave vote - what then?

Then we leave confident in the knowledge it's what the country wants, not a years old notion of what the will of the people is.

Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Saturday 15th December 22:50

[saaby93]

Trolleys Thank You said:

Then we leave confident in the knowledge it's what the country wants.

what type of leave?

[Tuna]

mx5nut said:

Tuna said:

Simple question for you. If there is a second referendum, and it returns a Leave vote - what then?

Then we'll know what form the people want our departure to take and can get on with it without the various Leave factions bickering between themselves.

Ah, so you're calling for a special mind reading referendum with a detailed breakdown of all the Leave options? Brillian

mx5nut said:

17.4m different ideas about what would happen next, all convinced that everyone agrees with them.

That's going to be a very long ballot paper.

Weren't you also complaining that a binary referendum couldn't possibly represent the desires of the people a few months ago?

[Tuna]

Trolleys Thank You said:

Tuna said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

"The desperation..." Yes your post reeks of it.

You can't undermine democracy with democracy. The people are entitled to change their minds. A referendum is now inevitable and in the best interests of British people.

House!

Simple question for you. If there is a second referendum, and it returns a Leave vote - what then?

Then we leave confident in the knowledge it's what the country wants.

But aren't you calling for a second referendum because we can't apparently leave right now? How does it change the current impasse? Do you think the EU will change their position?

[Trolleys Thank You]

saaby93 said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

Then we leave confident in the knowledge it's what the country wants.

what type of leave?

Dunno. Let's find out via the referendum questions.

[Tuna]

braddo said:

With respect to Tuna (ETA I mean being respectful towards - it might be ambiguous!), It's just listing out the trend and then predicting the trend won't change over the course of a weekend...

Being respectful back ... it's also a list of comments that have been made again and again for two years without once moving the discussion on, or convincing anyone to change their minds. So doing it again is a waste of everyone's time.

If 'Leavers are racist' is the trend, it's not a debate is it? It's a mud slinging match.

[Trolleys Thank You]

Tuna said:

But aren't you calling for a second referendum because we can't apparently leave right now? How does it change the current impasse? Do you think the EU will change their position?

Nope, in May's defense she's done about as best as she could do. So it's her deal, no deal or no Brexit for the people to decide on. Whichever the outcome is, I'd prefer it if the people got to decide which way we go, not the career politicians who we've already seen in the last week swayed by promises of peerages for voting the "right" way. This is far too important for 600 odd people to ultimately decide on.

[Tuna]

Trolleys Thank You said:

Dunno. Let's find out via the referendum questions.

Fantastic. Another call for magic referendum questions that do what this government has failed to do for two and a half years!

It's no bloody good calling for a referendum if you cannot even tell us how it will fix things, is it?

[mx5nut]

Tuna said:

Ah, so you're calling for a special mind reading referendum with a detailed breakdown of all the Leave options? Brillian

Well we could leave it to our government to do what they believe is in the best interests of the country while fulfilling the question asked in the 2016 referendum, but some seem very opposed to that because they might not get everything they dreamed of when they cast their vote.

[Tuna]

mx5nut said:

Tuna said:

Ah, so you're calling for a special mind reading referendum with a detailed breakdown of all the Leave options? Brillian

Well we could leave it to our government to do what they believe is in the best interests of the country while fulfilling the question asked in the 2016 referendum, but some seem very opposed to that because they might not get everything they dreamed of when they cast their vote.

Well I'm happy to let them do it, and it appears you're happy to let them do it - so why are you calling for a second referendum?

[Crackie]

toppstuff said:

Lets be under no illusion.

This mess is Leaves doing. Leave fumbled brexit.

Right from the start the case for WTO should have been made and preparations started. Invoking art 50 should have waited until the country had been given notice of what was going to happen and what the honest likely outcomes would be.

Leave failed to do this. Hence this mess.

It’s all team Leave’s fault. A weird combination of arrogance, hubris and a complete failure to plan.

Lets be under no illusion...….. Cameron made no attempt to prepare for Leave prior to the 2016 vote; he blocked Tory party leave supporters from meeting with the civil service in the run up to the vote. A remainer superseded Cameron and her autocratic remain stance has dominated negotiations.

This mess is remain's doing. Remain fumbled brexit.

Right from the start the case for WTO should have been made and preparations started. Invoking art 50 should have waited until the country had been given notice of what was going to happen and what the honest likely outcomes would be.

Remain failed to do this. Hence this mess.

It’s all team remain’s fault. A weird combination of arrogance, hubris and a complete failure to plan......because they wanted to remain.

[braddo]

I would love the government and Parliament to have some balls.

The balls to say that we gave you a referendum in 2016, a Brexit deal has been negotiated which is the closest possible thing to what the various promises made in the 2016 campaign aggregate into, while limiting the damage of leaving with no deal. We know that that negotiated deal is hated by everyone, so based on that we decide that it is in the national interest to withdraw our Article 50 notice.

[saaby93]

braddo said:

I would love the government and Parliament to have some balls.

The balls to say that we gave you a referendum in 2016, a Brexit deal has been negotiated which is the closest possible thing to what the various promises made in the 2016 campaign aggregate into, while limiting the damage of leaving with no deal. We know that that negotiated deal is hated by everyone, so based on that we decide that it is in the national interest to withdraw our Article 50 notice.

and give everyone two weeks holiday

Good Post

Are we all on the same page yet?

[braddo]

Crackie said:

Lets be under no illusion...….. Cameron made no attempt to prepare for Leave prior to the 2016 vote; he blocked Tory party leave supporters from meeting with the civil service in the run up to the vote. A remainer superseded Cameron and her autocratic remain stance has dominated negotiations.

This mess is remain's doing. Remain fumbled brexit.

Right from the start the case for WTO should have been made and preparations started. Invoking art 50 should have waited until the country had been given notice of what was going to happen and what the honest likely outcomes would be.

Remain failed to do this. Hence this mess.

It’s all team remain’s fault. A weird combination of arrogance, hubris and a complete failure to plan......because they wanted to remain.

Well, indeed - it was a remainer who called the referendum with the intention that there would only be one answer. He made his decision in the context of the Conservative Party and preserving its voter base; the decision to hold the referendum had NOTHING to do with the national interest or a national debate - Brexit was at the margins of national debate.

But, given the open goal of a pro-Brexit referendum, the pro-Brexit politicians have proved that their temples are built on sand and that frankly, those politicians are full of st and don't care about the national interest.

[Tuna]

braddo said:

I would love the government and Parliament to have some balls.

The balls to say that we gave you a referendum in 2016, a Brexit deal has been negotiated which is the closest possible thing to what the various promises made in the 2016 campaign aggregate into, while limiting the damage of leaving with no deal. We know that that negotiated deal is hated by everyone, so based on that we decide that it is in the national interest to withdraw our Article 50 notice.

I'll grant you it would take balls to do that. Possibly not in the way you mean it, but still

..so you think that would go well, would it?

[Trolleys Thank You]

Tuna said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

Dunno. Let's find out via the referendum questions.

Fantastic. Another call for magic referendum questions that do what this government has failed to do for two and a half years!

It's no bloody good calling for a referendum if you cannot even tell us how it will fix things, is it?

What on earth are you on about? A referendum would define in more detail how we'd leave, taking that power out of MPs hands. Unless you are keen to see May do everything she can (including bribing other MPs) to get her deal through then why would you be against this?