How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
Tuna said:
I'll grant you it would take balls to do that. Possibly not in the way you mean it, but still 
..so you think that would go well, would it?
Politicians have been completely gutless in explaining to the electorate that Brexit is a bad idea and that the EU is not the source of the UK's problems. UK governments are responsible for the ills of the country but who is going to admit that? Who has the balls today to say that most of our exports go to the EU and most of our imports are from them (i.e. we are very highly dependent on the EU and we do in fact have a lot of say over how things are run in the EU today - but, it ain't perfect by a long stretch). ..so you think that would go well, would it?
So no, it won't go well. I can't see the UK doing a yellow-vest movement though; can you?
toppstuff said:
Thorodin said:
toppstuff said:
Lets be under no illusion.
This mess is Leaves doing. Leave fumbled brexit.
Right from the start the case for WTO should have been made and preparations started. Invoking art 50 should have waited until the country had been given notice of what was going to happen and what the honest likely outcomes would be.
Leave failed to do this. Hence this mess.
It’s all team Leave’s fault. A weird combination of arrogance, hubris and a complete failure to plan.
You seem to be suffering under disillusion. It wasn't a 'Leave team' that handled any negotiations, methods, objectives or strategy. It was in fact a remain team, no matter what platitudes they bandied. So therefore, under your own definition, any mismanagement was the Remainers' fault. This mess is Leaves doing. Leave fumbled brexit.
Right from the start the case for WTO should have been made and preparations started. Invoking art 50 should have waited until the country had been given notice of what was going to happen and what the honest likely outcomes would be.
Leave failed to do this. Hence this mess.
It’s all team Leave’s fault. A weird combination of arrogance, hubris and a complete failure to plan.
Hubris on the governments part brought us here - propelled by an absurdly dumbed-down binary voting option.
Your part in bold is correct; government negotiations, objectives and strategy brought us here; we had a remain PM before the referendum and a remain PM since. She didn't want to leave in 2016, she campaigned for remain in the run up to the referendum and she still doesn't want to leave. Leave have had negligible influence on the negotiations.
Trolleys Thank You said:
Tuna said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
Dunno. Let's find out via the referendum questions.
Fantastic. Another call for magic referendum questions that do what this government has failed to do for two and a half years!It's no bloody good calling for a referendum if you cannot even tell us how it will fix things, is it?
Trolleys Thank You said:
Tuna said:
I'll grant you it would take balls to do that. Possibly not in the way you mean it, but still
..so you think that would go well, would it?
British Business would take a massive sigh of relief...so you think that would go well, would it?
Oh BTW JLR executives have been already been shown to be playing light with the truth in these very hallowed pages.
Crackie said:
Thorodin's position is not bobbins though is it....it is completely correct.
Your part in bold is correct; government negotiations, objectives and strategy brought us here; we had a remain PM before the referendum and a remain PM since. She didn't want to leave in 2016, she campaigned for remain in the run up to the referendum and she still doesn't want to leave. Leave have had negligible influence on the negotiations.
There was never going to be a leaver PM. They would never get (and didn't get) voted in. Well, unless you mean Jeremy Corbyn in 2019. Your part in bold is correct; government negotiations, objectives and strategy brought us here; we had a remain PM before the referendum and a remain PM since. She didn't want to leave in 2016, she campaigned for remain in the run up to the referendum and she still doesn't want to leave. Leave have had negligible influence on the negotiations.
Even then, Corbyn has 0% chance of getting a government or parliament to vote for a hard Brexit. If Corbyn becomes PM he will be the all-time weakest PM to take office given that most if his own MPs don't like him.
Trolleys Thank You said:
otis criblecoblis said:
It's odd more Remainers didn't spot this fatal flaw and stop the referendum from taking place after they were the ones who gave the public the referendum. Even more odd they then campaigned on the basis that at the least it would mean leaving the SM + CU, or leaving on WTO terms. Did you not believe the Remain campaign ?
The desperation to want Rudd and Co to deliver another vote again referendum, sorry, peoples vote, is particularly dumb, as Rudd and the Caroline Lucas types are the typical Remain MPs who voted to give us a referendum, but then immediately campaigned on the above outcomes and how it would lead to the destruction of the UK. Makes you wonder why they were happy to risk, but then at least one vocal anti Brexit/vote MP couldn't even remember she voted to hold a referendum, and she's now the darling of the vote again crowd - embarrassing.
One of the few good things May did was the Lancaster House speech. She broadly summed up the reasons for leaving and what that would mean. Shame she didn't stick with it, but Remainers eh ?
Time is running out, and not enough of the already spineless pro EU MPs that fill the HoC are going to back another vote, even this bunch of muppets know just how disastrous it looks , save for the odd few PH dolts clinging to the idea.
"The desperation..." Yes your post reeks of it.The desperation to want Rudd and Co to deliver another vote again referendum, sorry, peoples vote, is particularly dumb, as Rudd and the Caroline Lucas types are the typical Remain MPs who voted to give us a referendum, but then immediately campaigned on the above outcomes and how it would lead to the destruction of the UK. Makes you wonder why they were happy to risk, but then at least one vocal anti Brexit/vote MP couldn't even remember she voted to hold a referendum, and she's now the darling of the vote again crowd - embarrassing.
One of the few good things May did was the Lancaster House speech. She broadly summed up the reasons for leaving and what that would mean. Shame she didn't stick with it, but Remainers eh ?
Time is running out, and not enough of the already spineless pro EU MPs that fill the HoC are going to back another vote, even this bunch of muppets know just how disastrous it looks , save for the odd few PH dolts clinging to the idea.
You can't undermine democracy with democracy. The people are entitled to change their minds. A referendum is now inevitable and in the best interests of British people.
I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
braddo said:
otis criblecoblis said:
...
One of the few good things May did was the Lancaster House speech. She broadly summed up the reasons for leaving and what that would mean. Shame she didn't stick with it, but Remainers eh ?
....
One of the few good things May did was the Lancaster House speech. She broadly summed up the reasons for leaving and what that would mean. Shame she didn't stick with it, but Remainers eh ?
....
The speech that was filled will bulls
t contradictory demands that the EU had patiently and politely pointed out many times before the speech that they would be non-negotiable. The speech that is probably the best example of the Tories arguing amongst themselves what Brexit should mean while ignoring the party they actually have to negotiate (beg) with.GOOD POST!!!!
otis criblecoblis said:
Well, that's a great line to please to vote again dolts. You are perfectly free to change your mind, I can't stop another referendum from happening. The only question is if it's fair to want another the very second the result comes through having stood there and backed what was campaigned on as the outcome.
I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
Newby trolling brexiter. Making up what all brexiters apparently knew and voted for 2.5 years ago. Pretending to know how many sway voters are out there and which way they are going to vote. Conspiracy theory idiot. I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
braddo said:
otis criblecoblis said:
Well, that's a great line to please to vote again dolts. You are perfectly free to change your mind, I can't stop another referendum from happening. The only question is if it's fair to want another the very second the result comes through having stood there and backed what was campaigned on as the outcome.
I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
Newby trolling brexiter. Making up what all brexiters apparently knew and voted for 2.5 years ago. Pretending to know how many sway voters are out there and which way they are going to vote. Conspiracy theory idiot. I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
braddo said:
Making up what all brexiters apparently knew and voted for 2.5 years ago. Pretending to know how many sway voters are out there and which way they are going to vote. Conspiracy theory idiot.
Can't have anyone stealing your job can we? Or indeed the dedicated trolls who never post outside NP&E Brexit threads.
braddo said:
otis criblecoblis said:
Well, that's a great line to please to vote again dolts. You are perfectly free to change your mind, I can't stop another referendum from happening. The only question is if it's fair to want another the very second the result comes through having stood there and backed what was campaigned on as the outcome.
I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
Newby trolling brexiter. Making up what all brexiters apparently knew and voted for 2.5 years ago. Pretending to know how many sway voters are out there and which way they are going to vote. Conspiracy theory idiot. I happen to think you at least implement the vote before seeking to overturn it, perhaps especially so since it was 40 years since the last one and you waited all of the ten seconds it took to pick your jaw from the floor on result night to demand another.
You stood behind betting all in one huge Remain gamble to secure continued EU membership, mainly because you rather smugly thought a Remain win was a cert. You bet the house on a single bet, lost, now demand a rematch. Still, it's fun to read Topstuff try and say how it's all Leaves fault...
For the few swaying voters who have changed their mind either way and over the past two and and a half years reflected, I have some sympathy. The rather shallow end of the PH Remain pool of Mx5 and Co are just laughably sad people who talk about democracy and democracy deniers, but have zero substance and just the tantrum and vote again calls when the result came in.
Odd how everyone glossed over what was campaigned on and warned on about Leave meaning leaving the SM + CU, along with the possibility of going to WTO. Lets pretend no one mentioned it and it was very much a possibility the electorate had to factor in when voting.
thetrickcyclist said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
Tuna said:
I'll grant you it would take balls to do that. Possibly not in the way you mean it, but still
..so you think that would go well, would it?
British Business would take a massive sigh of relief...so you think that would go well, would it?
Oh BTW JLR executives have been already been shown to be playing light with the truth in these very hallowed pages.
wc98 said:
Helicopter123 said:
The odds continue to shorten, now just 6/4 on Betfair.
and another vote to leave should that happen is evens favourite 
mx5nut said:
powerstroke said:
Not that ste again , we were told we would leave every aspect of the EU .
And the winning side won by calling that idea "Project Fear".te again , we were told we would leave every aspect of the EU .We are in the EU, European Economic Area, EU Customs Union and Council of Europe. The only one that you actually voted to leave is the EU. Interestingly, all EFTA countries are in the Schengen Area, EEA, and C of Europe. I wonder if y'all would want to join the EFTA (even if we were able... I think that would force Eire to join the Schengen area
)Mx5nut: You mean, the concept of leaving the EU with no deal was "project fear"? Yeah. I remember that phrase. We were told we were never going to be at risk of leaving the EU with no deal. Funny huh?
ash73 said:
Roboraver said:
2nd ref with realistic "ends and outcomes" bring it on
Ok, so for the Remain option...What will our net contribution be in 10, 20, 30 years?
What other powers will be centralised in that time?
How far East and South will the EU expand?
We need to be realistic about the outcome, as you said.
Regarding expansion it depends upon how far down the line they've got with the Barcelona agreement.
braddo said:
Newby trolling brexiter. Making up what all brexiters apparently knew and voted for 2.5 years ago. Pretending to know how many sway voters are out there and which way they are going to vote. Conspiracy theory idiot.
OK dolt boy, I'll indulge your stupidity.I don't claim to know the exact details on what 17 million voted for, no more than you can say what the lesser number of Remain voters voted for.
We can however look back on what was campaigned on and take in surveys and polls to see what the issues were. Having done that, we can also see why Remain made the main attack focus on having to leave the SM + CU to fulfill most of what was being said. It was also confirmed by leading Leave figures who answered outright that this would be the case and this was also seized on by Remain who thought it an own goal and used it as an attack line daily. Another point you also want to gloss over was the fact that leaving on WTO terms was also a possibility and consequence of a Leave vote that voters had to keep in mind, but which you now want to forget and pretend never happened.
I made no claim as to the number of sway voters after the referendum to today, but it seems even at it's worst point in negotiations , that's a 6% shift at worse. My point when mentioning sway voters was that I had some sympathy for those that after 2.5 years have maybe slowly changed their mind.
I have zero sympathy for what appears to be the majority of dopey PH remainers on here who were quite happy with the winner takes all stakes to the referendum when they thought they would win, but who then on the morning of the result started bleating about having another rematch.
Those people are dolts trying to hide behind that a referendum every 5 mins until the result they would like , is democracy. These muppets forgot what they stood by in the first referendum, mainly because of their arrogance in assuming a remain win. Don't worry though, you stand with dopey Remainer MPs like Rudd and Lucas, who both voted to hold a referendum they would now like to overturn. Also too Heidi Allen remainer/vote again MP who forgot she even voted for a referendum to take place. Probably a good time for Topstuff to bleat about it all being Leave's fault...
Just to show you how stupid and what liars some Remainers are, did anyone catch that Scottish MP on Politics Live the other day trying to reverse ferret and say how immigration wasn't much of a concern to voters, mainly because he was arguing to stay in the sm + cu where free movement would still apply , so tried to downplay fulfilling the need to end free movement as an issue.
The point here was what Remain, and the likes of he had said in the campaign, where the attack line was it being solely about immigration !
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