How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[Atomic12C]

I wonder when somebody will point out to MPs and the media that having a "no deal" Brexit does not mean we END TRADE with the EU.
Trade will continue, both ways.

For some reason we are presented with the notion that the day after the exit on a "no deal", the UK will be frantically looking for other nations to import all our products that the EU used to supply.

We surely will have that option, but to make ends meet we can calmly carry on importing from the EU until we set up cheaper deals elsewhere.

[JNW1]

Jinx said:

philv said:

Well let’s see...

Several hundred more in spending on tne annual ho.iday.
Several thousand difference in visitation costs and maintenance payments for child in eu.

So 3 to 4 k difference a year.

If brexit goes ahead we can add -
Travel/medical insurance
Visa fees
And who knows what else

I would think a lot of people have been severely affected.

Erm Phil - a lot of people (many who probably/possibly voted for brexit) don't have the money for a foreign holiday each year or even ever. I suspect they might not have much sympathy for your position.

Indeed, I wonder how many have suffered to the tune of several thousand a year because the costs of visitation and maintenance payments for a child in the EU have increased; I'm sure it's inconvenient for people in that situation but surely they represent only a tiny minority of the UK population?

[thetrickcyclist]

Coolbanana said:

If this is what you truly believe...don't ever try and lead a business.

Are you qualified to make that statement and if so please supply some detail for us to judge whether you are correct or ........

[Dr Jekyll]

Piha said:

Dr Jekyll said:

In which case you are in the wrong business. Why should consumers have to subsidise producers? Quite apart from cases where those 'home based' producers are in Spain and the consumers in the UK.

That is a nasty statement. Care to back it up?

Why don't you tell everyone what industry you and your family work/worked in, so we can decide if we consumers "subside" you and your family.

I’m in IT and nobody subsidises me. I’ve had to constantly retrain to keep my skills marketable, nobody subsidises obsolete computers so that I can stay in the same business. In the last 10 years I’ve had 4 contracts ended because the client outsourced to India or the far east, so my rates are a couple of hundred quid a week less than 10 years ago.

As for keeping people employed here, it doesn’t work like that. Look at the US. Trump, whose understanding of economics is on a part with the typical remainer, put tariffs on Chinese steel. At first US steel producers were celebrating because customers that had previously saved money by buying Chinese were having to pay their prices. But now the customers are in trouble because the amount they are paying for steel makes them uncompetitive, so they are demanding tariffs on imported cars etc. For every steel producers job protected, 16 are at risk in steel consuming industries.

[otis criblecoblis]

Nickgnome said:

otis criblecoblis said:

The original claim - made by Helicopter who did a runner and doesn't answer - was about how it could be controlled. You advocating deporting people, and presumably their families if they have no job, does not control numbers .

The current government has a 100k target for immigration. I personally think it a bit silly to set an actual number, but that's another conversation. The 50k figure is simply half of this to represent the split between EU and rest of world. So you were asked in a hypothetical situation how you would actually control numbers to get close to that figure. I clearly wasn't advocating a 50K total immigration figure.

Odd that we now have Remainers advocating deporting those from the EU. The optics of that done on any scale would really play well to the Guardian crowd, what with kids being removed from schools and deported.
The reason it's not widely used is because it's very expensive and does nothing to control numbers in the way the public wants to see.
Given the current numbers of immigration from outside the EU, the UK doesn't seem to have a shortage of people wanting to come and work here. I don't see the problem in those from the joining the same kinda system.

I suggest you endeavour not to interpertate a very straightforward point that’ steered you where you could ascertain the Eu regulations. I passed no opinion on them.

Where did I advocate deporting Unemployed Eu nationals?

You answered the ability to remove people was your answer to controlling numbers. You of course declined to say how that would really control, or get near to the current governments target, mainly because you know it is useless at doing so.
You want to pretend this is a control to be used, but just isn't isn't in use. Everyone else knows you are pissing down their back while saying it's raining.

Lets see if you want to dodge the question again. How would any of the things you cite control numbers and meet a target of 50K ?

[Piha]

Dr Jekyll said:

Piha said:

Dr Jekyll said:

In which case you are in the wrong business. Why should consumers have to subsidise producers? Quite apart from cases where those 'home based' producers are in Spain and the consumers in the UK.

That is a nasty statement. Care to back it up?

Why don't you tell everyone what industry you and your family work/worked in, so we can decide if we consumers "subside" you and your family.

I’m in IT and nobody subsidises me. I’ve had to constantly retrain to keep my skills marketable, nobody subsidises obsolete computers so that I can stay in the same business. In the last 10 years I’ve had 4 contracts ended because the client outsourced to India or the far east, so my rates are a couple of hundred quid a week less than 10 years ago.

As for keeping people employed here, it doesn’t work like that. Look at the US. Trump, whose understanding of economics is on a part with the typical remainer, put tariffs on Chinese steel. At first US steel producers were celebrating because customers that had previously saved money by buying Chinese were having to pay their prices. But now the customers are in trouble because the amount they are paying for steel makes them uncompetitive, so they are demanding tariffs on imported cars etc. For every steel producers job protected, 16 are at risk in steel consuming industries.

Are you saying that nobody in India or China can do your job at a cheaper rate? Because I find that very hard to believe.

Keeping people employed here is a necessity IMO. If we had a completely Free Trade then UK farmers would not be able to compete with the US. Do you think that UK farmers should just go bankrupt then? What would happen to UK society if we had large parts of the population unable to compete with India & China due to the low wage economies of said countries? What is your opinion on the Chinese steel tax rebates?

[PRTVR]

Jinx said:

philv said:

Well let’s see...

Several hundred more in spending on tne annual ho.iday.
Several thousand difference in visitation costs and maintenance payments for child in eu.

So 3 to 4 k difference a year.

If brexit goes ahead we can add -
Travel/medical insurance
Visa fees
And who knows what else

I would think a lot of people have been severely affected.

Edited by philv on Monday 17th December 09:30

Edited by philv on Monday 17th December 09:32

Erm Phil - a lot of people (many who probably/possibly voted for brexit) don't have the money for a foreign holiday each year or even ever. I suspect they might not have much sympathy for your position.

Quite, have you seen how much Ferraris cost now due this madness that is Brexit, will nobody think of the poor people....
One of the airport's in the north east charge you just to use the airport and don't get me started on drop-off pick up charges.

[Dr Jekyll]

Piha said:

Are you saying that nobody in India or China can do your job at a cheaper rate? Because I find that very hard to believe.

Keeping people employed here is a necessity IMO. If we had a completely Free Trade then UK farmers would not be able to compete with the US. Do you think that UK farmers should just go bankrupt then? What would happen to UK society if we had large parts of the population unable to compete with India & China due to the low wage economies of said countries? What is your opinion on the Chinese steel tax rebates?

I'm saying they can do what used to be my job at a cheaper rate, so I have had to find something else. How do you justify importing oranges from Spain tariff free? Should UK orange producers go bankrupt? There ARE large parts of UK society that can't compete with foreign countries for certain roles, so they do something else.

[Nickgnome]

pgh said:

Piha said:

pgh said:

Piha said:

Dr Jekyll said:

In which case you are in the wrong business. Why should consumers have to subsidise producers? Quite apart from cases where those 'home based' producers are in Spain and the consumers in the UK.

That is a nasty statement. Care to back it up?

Why don't you tell everyone what industry you and your family work/worked in, so we can decide if we consumers "subside" you and your family.

Why would you consider a free market "nasty"?

I am replying to DrJ's comment. Can you show me where I stated I "consider a free market nasty"?

DrJ is describing a free market - without consumers (tax payers) subsidising producers. Why is that nasty?

There is no such thing as a 'Free Market' That is why trade talks generally prove quite difficult. Various tax regimes and local business rate subsidies distort real costs in every nation and every state /county

If you do much trading you will soon get to realise that. It is very Naive to think otherwise.

[soupdragon1]

Dr Jekyll said:

Piha said:

Are you saying that nobody in India or China can do your job at a cheaper rate? Because I find that very hard to believe.

Keeping people employed here is a necessity IMO. If we had a completely Free Trade then UK farmers would not be able to compete with the US. Do you think that UK farmers should just go bankrupt then? What would happen to UK society if we had large parts of the population unable to compete with India & China due to the low wage economies of said countries? What is your opinion on the Chinese steel tax rebates?

I'm saying they can do what used to be my job at a cheaper rate, so I have had to find something else. How do you justify importing oranges from Spain tariff free? Should UK orange producers go bankrupt? There ARE large parts of UK society that can't compete with foreign countries for certain roles, so they do something else.

Can we assume you are joking about oranges being produced in the UK!?

As a basic for 'how to run a country' article 1 will be that you can be self sustainable. You should be able to feed your nation. The minute you start deviating from basic stuff like that, you may as well reduce your defence budget too. You wouldn't dream of scrapping the army, the defence of your country, but reducing your ability to be self sustainable is akin to sacking large parts of your countries defence strategy.

[gooner1]

Nickgnome said:

gooner1 said:

I never said you mentioned blame.
That was Frisbee.
My question to you was in response to your reply to Frisbees post in which you
quoted , "they will be silent on this and in a page or two consider they have escaped from being held to account"
I answered Frisbee' question and then asked you the question,
Who or what will they consider they
have escaped from.?

And what do is it you think I might duck?
I

That you and your fellow conservatives select the candidates, vote for them and when they turn out not to be as you expected take no responsibility for making a bad choice in the first place.

Sorry to upset your assumptions but I not only did not vote Conservative in the last GE,
nor in local elections, but I have never voted for them in my life.
However, with the state of the current Labour lot, I may for the first time in my voting
life abstain from voting in the next GE. HTH.

[PurpleMoonlight]

pgh said:

The point is that the UK currently subsidies EU orange producers. We pay more to protect Spanish farmers from other international producers who may be able to operate at lower costs. In short, the EU makes the UK consumer spend more on oranges than is necessary.

Do no UK businesses enjoy protection under the EU?

[anonymous-user]

Jinx said:

Erm Phil - a lot of people (many who probably/possibly voted for brexit) don't have the money for a foreign holiday each year or even ever. I suspect they might not have much sympathy for your position.

It’s clear that the poor voted to have less chance of a foreign holiday and increase revenue for financial services in exchange for cheap clothing and fruit.

[Dr Jekyll]

soupdragon1 said:

Can we assume you are joking about oranges being produced in the UK!?

As a basic for 'how to run a country' article 1 will be that you can be self sustainable. You should be able to feed your nation. The minute you start deviating from basic stuff like that, you may as well reduce your defence budget too. You wouldn't dream of scrapping the army, the defence of your country, but reducing your ability to be self sustainable is akin to sacking large parts of your countries defence strategy.

I'm making a serious point about oranges. They can't be competitively produced in the UK so according to protectionist theory we should put huge tariffs on imported oranges, otherwise all our would-be orange producers unable to compete, what will happen to them? In reality it's far better to trade with somewhere they can be produced more cheaply.

If you really believe in being self sufficient in food, you need to be against the EU as well because we import food from there.
Realistically we can't be self sufficient in food, and we wouldn't have any money left for a defence budget if we tried.

[Nickgnome]

gooner1 said:

Sorry to upset your assumptions but I not only did not vote Conservative in the last GE,
nor in local elections, but I have never voted for them in my life.
However, with the state of the current Labour lot, I may for the first time in my voting
life abstain from voting in the next GE. HTH.

Then I unreservedly apologise.

I don't think my original post was aimed at you personally but specifically at Tory voters. So my sentiment in regard to them remains.

[saaby93]

Nickgnome said:

Then I unreservedly apologise.

I don't think my original post was aimed at you personally but specifically at Tory voters. So my sentiment in regard to them remains.

Who's to say labour voters wouldnt be any different
or liberal or whichever else

[PurpleMoonlight]

gooner1 said:

Sorry to upset your assumptions but I not only did not vote Conservative in the last GE,
nor in local elections, but I have never voted for them in my life.
However, with the state of the current Labour lot, I may for the first time in my voting
life abstain from voting in the next GE. HTH.

Welcome to my world.

[gooner1]

Nickgnome said:

Then I unreservedly apologise.

I don't think my original post was aimed at you personally but specifically at Tory voters. So my sentiment in regard to them remains.

No worries.

[Chicken Chaser]

Thought i'd post a couple of articles i've just read through. Puts perspective on both sides of the argument although one is certainly more focused than the other.



https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speec...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/brexit-wou...

[Nickgnome]

otis criblecoblis said:

You answered the ability to remove people was your answer to controlling numbers. You of course declined to say how that would really control, or get near to the current governments target, mainly because you know it is useless at doing so.
You want to pretend this is a control to be used, but just isn't isn't in use. Everyone else knows you are pissing down their back while saying it's raining.

Lets see if you want to dodge the question again. How would any of the things you cite control numbers and meet a target of 50K ?

How can I make it any clearer?

I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH F.o.M

Why should I need to come up with a solution to an issue that for me does not exist? Surely that's your problem as it seems you have an issue with immigration?

I merely pointed you to the relevant clauses that enable the government to ensure Eu citizens do not stay without a job. If you feel the need for legal advise on how the clauses work speak to a lawyer.

If you do not think the Clauses are inadequate then it is for you to advise that why, in your opinion, they fail.

Edited by Nickgnome on Monday 17th December 11:36

Edited by Nickgnome on Monday 17th December 11:36