How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
RalphyM said:
Mrr T said:
I quoted both sections because you did not seem aware of the extent the Withdrawal Act gave the government the ability to create legislation without reference to parliament.
I could certainly make a case that you could use Section 9 to change the date of withdrawal while a withdrawal agreement was finalised. More difficult for an Art 50 revocation I agree.
However, the real question is does the Withdrawal Act put the UK in breach of EU treaties?
That is indeed a good question. If the A50 period was extended without any change to the Withdrawal Act, there would be a conflict between the 2. In a sense, both you and Paul are correct. There would be nothing in UK law to enforce the treaty requirements. It would certainly be subject to legal challenge by the EU. As long as the 2 were the same I don't think a challenge would be successful however as soon as there was any divergence then it would. I could certainly make a case that you could use Section 9 to change the date of withdrawal while a withdrawal agreement was finalised. More difficult for an Art 50 revocation I agree.
However, the real question is does the Withdrawal Act put the UK in breach of EU treaties?
However, the other thing that is very relevant in this case is that the EU would be required to honour all of their obligations as well. It would open up a huge can of worms. At any point, if the EU did not include the UK as a full member in all discussions. It could be open to legal challenge by the UK.
We live in interesting times.
Piha said:
Leave won the referendum. This is a fact.
The tories won the GE. The said they would deliver the referendum result. This is what TM is doing.
TM has presented the exit plan.
It is time the Leave campaign accepted the PMs offer. It is Yes or No. No if's or but's. YES or NO.
If Leave don't like TM's deal then we need a People's Vote.
If the PM’s plan was Leave and it was sThe tories won the GE. The said they would deliver the referendum result. This is what TM is doing.
TM has presented the exit plan.
It is time the Leave campaign accepted the PMs offer. It is Yes or No. No if's or but's. YES or NO.
If Leave don't like TM's deal then we need a People's Vote.
tty, I would agree with you. I’m struggling with how the WA is LEAVE.
It is Remain with knobs on. And once you sign you can never actually really leave unless the EU wish it.
So it is not delivering leave. It is delivering “some day you might leave. But you could be tied to us forever”
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd have spent the previous 2 years making preparations for no deal and WTO. Not waste 2 years subverting the referendum result and trying to sell stale bread to the electorate.
But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
And which leave voting MP do you think could have fulfilled your Brexit dream of no deal.But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
No deal is not even JRM's preferred choice and DD was attempting to achieve a deal.
Ghibli said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd have spent the previous 2 years making preparations for no deal and WTO. Not waste 2 years subverting the referendum result and trying to sell stale bread to the electorate.
But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
And which leave voting MP do you think could have fulfilled your Brexit dream of no deal.But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
No deal is not even JRM's preferred choice and DD was attempting to achieve a deal.
Mrr T said:
You have to remember that no deal does not mean no deal. The dream now is no deal plus. The plus is where the UK gets everything it wants without any of the things it does not want and does not have to pay the exit bill. It a close relation to the cake and eat it deal.
That would explain two years of preparations to achieve nothing.Are all remainers just risk adverse?
Ok slightly provocative I know but the earlier post about adopting the Euro etc to go full on EU is interesting as I think the % of remainers wanting to drop the pound would be small? so there is not some great wish to necessarily to be one united Europe, one wonders what limits all of us have, adopting the Euro, joint army etc etc, if the goal as some say for the EU is a united states of Europe are we cool with that in approximately the same proportion as the referendum?
If a fair chunk of remainers aren't actually really into that long term then are we not going to approach a similar loggerhead situation down the line? Am I extrapolating too much?
Anyway the main risk of leaving (or doing anything away from the status quo) seems to be that we'd be worse off, the risk of dropping the pound would also probably be (reported at least) negative (I've no idea other than we kept it for a reason way back when) but isn't it really a fear of the unknown, almost a lack of confidence or self belief, or a every thing is fine now why bother rocking the boat attitude underpinning all this, rather than a necessarily pro EU stance?
Ok slightly provocative I know but the earlier post about adopting the Euro etc to go full on EU is interesting as I think the % of remainers wanting to drop the pound would be small? so there is not some great wish to necessarily to be one united Europe, one wonders what limits all of us have, adopting the Euro, joint army etc etc, if the goal as some say for the EU is a united states of Europe are we cool with that in approximately the same proportion as the referendum?
If a fair chunk of remainers aren't actually really into that long term then are we not going to approach a similar loggerhead situation down the line? Am I extrapolating too much?
Anyway the main risk of leaving (or doing anything away from the status quo) seems to be that we'd be worse off, the risk of dropping the pound would also probably be (reported at least) negative (I've no idea other than we kept it for a reason way back when) but isn't it really a fear of the unknown, almost a lack of confidence or self belief, or a every thing is fine now why bother rocking the boat attitude underpinning all this, rather than a necessarily pro EU stance?
Troubleatmill said:
If the PM’s plan was Leave and it was stty, I would agree with you.
I’m struggling with how the WA is LEAVE.
It is Remain with knobs on. And once you sign you can never actually really leave unless the EU wish it.
So it is not delivering leave. It is delivering “some day you might leave. But you could be tied to us forever”
In other news, from YouGov Dec 4tty, I would agree with you. I’m struggling with how the WA is LEAVE.
It is Remain with knobs on. And once you sign you can never actually really leave unless the EU wish it.
So it is not delivering leave. It is delivering “some day you might leave. But you could be tied to us forever”
"Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"
In reverse order
3rd place. Jeremy Corbyn 24%
2nd place. Theresa May 35%
And tonight's winner in 1st place
Drum roll
1st place is Not Sure 37% So now is a good time to throw your hat in the ring, whoever you are.
FiF said:
In other news, from YouGov Dec 4
"Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"
In reverse order
3rd place. Jeremy Corbyn 24%
2nd place. Theresa May 35%
And tonight's winner in 1st place
Drum roll
1st place is Not Sure 37% So now is a good time to throw your hat in the ring, whoever you are.
Perfect timing for Tommy Robinson."Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"
In reverse order
3rd place. Jeremy Corbyn 24%
2nd place. Theresa May 35%
And tonight's winner in 1st place
Drum roll
1st place is Not Sure 37% So now is a good time to throw your hat in the ring, whoever you are.
Ghibli said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd have spent the previous 2 years making preparations for no deal and WTO. Not waste 2 years subverting the referendum result and trying to sell stale bread to the electorate.
But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
And which leave voting MP do you think could have fulfilled your Brexit dream of no deal.But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
No deal is not even JRM's preferred choice and DD was attempting to achieve a deal.
TEKNOPUG said:
Ghibli said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd have spent the previous 2 years making preparations for no deal and WTO. Not waste 2 years subverting the referendum result and trying to sell stale bread to the electorate.
But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
And which leave voting MP do you think could have fulfilled your Brexit dream of no deal.But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
No deal is not even JRM's preferred choice and DD was attempting to achieve a deal.
I was under the impression that no deal is was what you voted for because you didn't vote for the deal May has on offer and you can't come up with an alternative.
Would your preparations include work to the port of Calais so that the French can process our exports quickly.
Can't believe she got back on the plane with this as the plan.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/top-ten-horr...
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/top-ten-horr...
Mrr T said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The people voted to leave the SM, the CU, the ECJ and FOM. It was all laid out in the £9m Government leaflet exactly what "Leave" meant. Therefore the default position should have been to leave with "no (trade) deal" and then anything negotiated would be a bonus.
As for "someone else", I'd suggest starting with someone who actually respected the outcome of the vote and attempted to carry out the will of the people from day 1 would be a good idea. Someone who says "Brexit means Brexit" and "No deal is better than a bad deal".......unless of course if they are a liar and have done everything in their power to subvert the result of the referendum - which seems even more perverse given that they voted in parliament FIVE times to hold a referendum ....
I am confused by this. At the time the pamphlet was sent leavers all said it was rubbish and all part of project fear. Now leavers say it forms the basis of the decision to leave the SM and CU. Not sure you fully understand hypocrisy.As for "someone else", I'd suggest starting with someone who actually respected the outcome of the vote and attempted to carry out the will of the people from day 1 would be a good idea. Someone who says "Brexit means Brexit" and "No deal is better than a bad deal".......unless of course if they are a liar and have done everything in their power to subvert the result of the referendum - which seems even more perverse given that they voted in parliament FIVE times to hold a referendum ....
There was talk that it would take years to agree a FTA - that was rightly called out as project fear. In reality, that took less than a fortnight.
The Government leaflet, official Remain campaign and official Leave campaign all stated a vote to leave meant leaving the Single Market, Customs Union and jurisdiction of the ECJ...
Ghibli said:
FiF said:
In other news, from YouGov Dec 4
"Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"
In reverse order
3rd place. Jeremy Corbyn 24%
2nd place. Theresa May 35%
And tonight's winner in 1st place
Drum roll
1st place is Not Sure 37% So now is a good time to throw your hat in the ring, whoever you are.
Perfect timing for Tommy Robinson."Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?"
In reverse order
3rd place. Jeremy Corbyn 24%
2nd place. Theresa May 35%
And tonight's winner in 1st place
Drum roll
1st place is Not Sure 37% So now is a good time to throw your hat in the ring, whoever you are.
Ghibli said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Ghibli said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd have spent the previous 2 years making preparations for no deal and WTO. Not waste 2 years subverting the referendum result and trying to sell stale bread to the electorate.
But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
And which leave voting MP do you think could have fulfilled your Brexit dream of no deal.But given your contempt for the electorate you'd no doubt advocate letting them eat cake....
No deal is not even JRM's preferred choice and DD was attempting to achieve a deal.
I was under the impression that no deal is was what you voted for because you didn't vote for the deal May has on offer and you can't come up with an alternative.
Would your preparations include work to the port of Calais so that the French can process our exports quickly.
Why you wish to discuss what I would do, had I been PM 2 years ago seems utterly bizarre. What questions are troubling you so much that you seek these answers? Surely our time would be better discussing where we are now and the future, than an imaginary past where I was leader of the Conservative party?
Blackpuddin said:
This is a very telling poll. Not only is there no obvious replacement for TM, there is no obvious 'genius' anywhere with the magical ability to renegotiate Brexit.
So true even the EU say this is the only deal, therefore if/ when the WA is voted down we will leave on the 29th and go onto WTO rules. Vanden Saab said:
Blackpuddin said:
This is a very telling poll. Not only is there no obvious replacement for TM, there is no obvious 'genius' anywhere with the magical ability to renegotiate Brexit.
So true even the EU say this is the only deal, therefore if/ when the WA is voted down we will leave on the 29th and go onto WTO rules. At least we know that our Goverment is capable of negotiating all of our trade agreements at the same time whilst dealing with all of our exports to the EU backing up
Surely another referendum with all the magic thinking of how a no deal Brexit is what this country needs is needed.
TEKNOPUG said:
How I voted or what I voted for is of no relevance. I stated that I would start from the assumption of no deal being negotiated. Invent a time machine, transport me back to 2016 and install me as leader of the country and I'll answer the rest of your questions.
Why you wish to discuss what I would do, had I been PM 2 years ago seems utterly bizarre. What questions are troubling you so much that you seek these answers? Surely our time would be better discussing where we are now and the future, than an imaginary past where I was leader of the Conservative party?
No solution to the current situation? Just that the negotiations are being run by remainers and everything is their fault.Why you wish to discuss what I would do, had I been PM 2 years ago seems utterly bizarre. What questions are troubling you so much that you seek these answers? Surely our time would be better discussing where we are now and the future, than an imaginary past where I was leader of the Conservative party?
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