How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
Sway said:
Why have all three of you instantly, in a discussion regarding why the population of Britain has differed from the nations of the continental EU in it's approach to political integration, dived directly into prejudice and racism - or even that any assertion of cultural differences automatically means negativity?
I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Nice post and I agree with it. But you missed the context. My post was a response to the clear direction the thread was travelling in - some posters expressed the notion that brexit is happening because we "aren't the same" as those in the EU. I think that is something that needs calling out and I did it in that context. I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Dr Jekyll said:
Most of which has come about while we are in the EU.
haha... that really is ridiculous. The UK is the nanny state of Europe. Our own rules are more draconian than those in the EU when it comes to CCTV and privacy.
Brexit will, if anything, further accelerate our move toward a nanny state because that is the instinctive mood of our own Government, IMO.
toppstuff said:
They have more in common than not. FOM inside the EU means that the different nationalities live and work next to each other in a way not seen many years ago. For this reason, race-driven right wing extremism will only have a limited range among angry minorities, because much of the EU is too intermingled to want to go back to national divides.
I would say that cultural and national diversity in large employers inside the EU is probably greater than in the UK. The last factory I visited in Antwerp has a huge section of different nationalities from across Europe, including Spanish, Italians and Portuguese who "got on their bike" as Norman Tebbit said, to get work and improve their lives.
They had to get on their bike because their local economies were decimated by the Euro.I would say that cultural and national diversity in large employers inside the EU is probably greater than in the UK. The last factory I visited in Antwerp has a huge section of different nationalities from across Europe, including Spanish, Italians and Portuguese who "got on their bike" as Norman Tebbit said, to get work and improve their lives.
Thats not a good thing and will have a very negative long term effect for their home countries and the aging population left behind.
toppstuff said:
haha... that really is ridiculous.
The UK is the nanny state of Europe. Our own rules are more draconian than those in the EU when it comes to CCTV and privacy.
Brexit will, if anything, further accelerate our move toward a nanny state because that is the instinctive mood of our own Government, IMO.
No, the EU made us have all those CCTV cameras and privacy laws allowing the state access to our information, remember how vigorously Teresa May fought the EU forcing them upon us when she was Home Secretary?The UK is the nanny state of Europe. Our own rules are more draconian than those in the EU when it comes to CCTV and privacy.
Brexit will, if anything, further accelerate our move toward a nanny state because that is the instinctive mood of our own Government, IMO.
Oh hold on a moment...
jsf said:
They had to get on their bike because their local economies were decimated by the Euro.
Thats not a good thing and will have a very negative long term effect for their home countries and the aging population left behind.
But that is not the full picture. Young spaniards, for example, can be found in large numbers around Northern Europe. They send money back home.Thats not a good thing and will have a very negative long term effect for their home countries and the aging population left behind.
Spain's economy has improved however ( it is growing faster than the UK ) so many are returning.
Tories seem to like Tebbit's " get on yer bike" concept, but when it is truly used inside the EU it is seen as a problem and an indication of something bad... makes no sense.
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
In fact most of these short coming long predate the EU and none are caused by by the EU.
toppstuff said:
Nice post and I agree with it. But you missed the context. My post was a response to the clear direction the thread was travelling in - some posters expressed the notion that brexit is happening because we "aren't the same" as those in the EU. I think that is something that needs calling out and I did it in that context.
I didn't miss the context - I expressed it in my post... The reason brexit is happening, and the other EU nations aren't all disbanding it with us, IS because we are different.
Many of the reasons, cited by many in these threads, for why the ECSC morphed into the EEC/EC/EU is because of the things I and others listed as reasons for the UK not being of the same mind regarding political union. Note, that even the majority of remain arguments are around economics - not politics.
That "calling out" merely shows that your bias regarding the mindset of leave voters is absolute - even in the context of "why does Britain think differently to the other EU nations" you're seeing negativity in articulating difference!
PurpleMoonlight said:
Maybe the EU27 have found a way to retain their national identity and still work together for the greater good.
I agree, the 27 have retained their national identity...…....so far. Its certainly not what the commission want in the long term is it?The EU Commissions goal is to become a sovereign state in its own right and for individual member states to relinquish their sovereignty. It is a path that has been clear for to most observers for over 30 years and one which the EU make no secret about. 66% of EU citizens are also not happy about the direction the is going and was the deciding factor in my leave vote. I was planning to vote remain 24 hours before the referendum.
I appreciate a smaller percentage would currently vote to leave the EU; clearly that does depend on where you sit on the contributor beneficiary scale.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/12/junc...
Verhofstdt's rants regarding sovereignty are amusing...….and slightly disturbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Travelling is a chore these days compared to the past, it amazes me just how many people still travel via airports at Christmas, its always a ball ache.The drop in the £ will have had an impact, but i think people are less inclined to holiday abroad than they used to for other reasons too.
UK based holiday spots have seen a improvement in activity, so people are still taking a break away from home.
jsf said:
UK employee's can opt out of the working time directive.
My industry couldn't function working to the EU WTD.
Grants are using our own money. Why wouldn't they be available post Brexit? We already have a system of grants via national lottery funding and are more than capable of expanding funding once state aid restrictions are removed from the government.
Because the track record of our governments has shown them to. Be very poor at regional investment. My industry couldn't function working to the EU WTD.
Grants are using our own money. Why wouldn't they be available post Brexit? We already have a system of grants via national lottery funding and are more than capable of expanding funding once state aid restrictions are removed from the government.
Personally i quite like the idea that school bus drivers, lorry drivers, pilots etc are limited to the number of hours they should work. Policing of course is another matter.
Dr Jekyll said:
I didn't say they were caused by the EU, just that they were irrelevant to the question. If they had all predated the EU but gone away due to our enlightened leaders in Brussels the Remainers might have a point.
But if they'd gone away due to the EU that would be because the EU introduced legislation which would be seen as meddling with our sovereign parliament, so even more of a reason to vote leave, kind of a heads it's the EU, tails it's the EU?Our own Parliament made the laws that allow all the things that you mentioned to happen - you probably voted for one of the parties that did some of it.
Nickgnome said:
Because the track record of our governments has shown them to. Be very poor at regional investment.
Personally i quite like the idea that school bus drivers, lorry drivers, pilots etc are limited to the number of hours they should work. Policing of course is another matter.
It's not the WTD restricting the working hours of the occupations you've listed... Personally i quite like the idea that school bus drivers, lorry drivers, pilots etc are limited to the number of hours they should work. Policing of course is another matter.
Sway said:
I didn't miss the context - I expressed it in my post...
The reason brexit is happening, and the other EU nations aren't all disbanding it with us, IS because we are different.
Many of the reasons, cited by many in these threads, for why the ECSC morphed into the EEC/EC/EU is because of the things I and others listed as reasons for the UK not being of the same mind regarding political union. Note, that even the majority of remain arguments are around economics - not politics.
That "calling out" merely shows that your bias regarding the mindset of leave voters is absolute - even in the context of "why does Britain think differently to the other EU nations" you're seeing negativity in articulating difference!
Absolutely not. Maybe eloquence is escaping me here , but on this point I think we are actually in agreement. The reason brexit is happening, and the other EU nations aren't all disbanding it with us, IS because we are different.
Many of the reasons, cited by many in these threads, for why the ECSC morphed into the EEC/EC/EU is because of the things I and others listed as reasons for the UK not being of the same mind regarding political union. Note, that even the majority of remain arguments are around economics - not politics.
That "calling out" merely shows that your bias regarding the mindset of leave voters is absolute - even in the context of "why does Britain think differently to the other EU nations" you're seeing negativity in articulating difference!
I detected a tone in the thread that did not regard "difference" in the same and quite correct way you summarise it. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.
Nickgnome said:
Because the track record of our governments has shown them to. Be very poor at regional investment.
Personally i quite like the idea that school bus drivers, lorry drivers, pilots etc are limited to the number of hours they should work. Policing of course is another matter.
What makes you think UK government couldn't legislate limits to working time in jobs that require them for safety reasons?Personally i quite like the idea that school bus drivers, lorry drivers, pilots etc are limited to the number of hours they should work. Policing of course is another matter.
Mrr T said:
jsf said:
They had to get on their bike because their local economies were decimated by the Euro.
How did a currency, which is just a means of exchange of goods and services, decimate a country?Did all the notes and coins riot?
See also Greece.
Helicopter123 said:
Vanden Saab said:
RJG46 said:
Chris Grayling tells us to expect a rise in far-right extremism if we don't go through with Brexit.
What an utter Cock that man is.
Bearing in mind that far right extremism is on the rise in most of the world are you suggesting it is not happening here or are you suggesting that leaving or not leaving the EU will be irrelevant to any rise...What an utter Cock that man is.
You are right on your second point though...
Isolated pockets always come and go but I wouldn't say "most of the world" by any stretch if the imagination.
There is the same amount of evidence that you use to support your anecdotes. 
Helicopter123 said:
Mrr T said:
jsf said:
They had to get on their bike because their local economies were decimated by the Euro.
How did a currency, which is just a means of exchange of goods and services, decimate a country?Did all the notes and coins riot?
See also Greece.
Bit of a worrying article in today's Telegraph.
Looks like the Eurozone is definitely heading into recession.
Industrial production down 2.6% in Italy year on year, 2.6% in Spain, 1.3% in France and 1.9% in Germany.
This is worth quoting
"The Euro remains a relentlessly deflationary currency that has ripped demand out of whole economies. With weakened banking systems, towering imbalances between core and periphery, puny wage growth, relentless austerity and mass unemployment"
This is the economic edifice that Remainers wish to see us remain tightly bound for "economic" reasons. This is the project that centre-left politicians support as a "left wing" cause.
Looks like the Eurozone is definitely heading into recession.
Industrial production down 2.6% in Italy year on year, 2.6% in Spain, 1.3% in France and 1.9% in Germany.
This is worth quoting
"The Euro remains a relentlessly deflationary currency that has ripped demand out of whole economies. With weakened banking systems, towering imbalances between core and periphery, puny wage growth, relentless austerity and mass unemployment"
This is the economic edifice that Remainers wish to see us remain tightly bound for "economic" reasons. This is the project that centre-left politicians support as a "left wing" cause.
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