The death of the high street.
Discussion
So said:
V6 Pushfit said:
The High Street would be a winner in most areas if you could park and pop in to a shop. Most round here have such restrictive parking controls people just don’t bother.
Ah, a hobby horse of mine.In the 90s I used to drive into Nottingham, park right in the centre on the street, outside a cafe, and go for coffee. I'd then shop in the small, individual clothes shops, before having lunch in one of the many restaurants and bars. The afternoon would then involve more shopping and I'd return to my car early evening to drive home. I might repeat the process in the evening for drinking / clubbing, leaving my car there and collecting it the following day. My credit cards were usually hammered, with every penny flowing into the coffers of Nottingham's businesses. I spent hundreds every single weekend.
In 2018, the cafe outside which I used to park is boarded up and has been for some time. If I tried to park outside it, a traffic warden would ticket me within seconds. So I have to queue for one of the car parks, the nearest being Fletcher Gate, which stinks of urine, is filthy and is frequented by beggars asking for change. They sit right by the ticket machines.
The cafes have now mostly gone, to be replaced by Caffe Nero and the like. Bridlesmith Gate, which used to be home to many nice shops is becoming abandoned, ditto Clumber Street. All the independent clothes shops have gone, as has Paul Smith's original shop. The choice of restaurants is still okay, but you've got to stray outside the immediate centre to find them.
I wouldn't dream of leaving my car in Fletcher Gate car park overnight, and if I did it would certainly be expensive.
So, what has happened? Is it the Internet causing the problem? Not in my estimation. It's because Nottingham City Council has made the city inaccessible and unappealing for people with money, whilst encouraging people with little money to go into the city. The demographic of people using the city has greatly changed and those who now go there cannot support the type of shops, bars and restaurants that make a city centre a pleasant place to be.
People dont want to sit in cafes with traffic jams outside. Pedestrianised areas are always nicer. Air quality is becoming more important to people. I'd like to see traffic reduced in the city, but also like yourself i miss popping into town for an hour for no particular reason other than to chill in my favourite cafe. I accept i cant have both right now. Parking makes it a ridiculously expensive cup of coffee and overly time consuming. Public transport isn't really convenient for me, its expensive if you have a family and takes too long. Cycling is too dangerous if I'm with my kids. Park and ride systems in theory I'm sure are great, ive never once used one. If I'm getting in the car and paying to park i dont really want to also be catching and waiting for busses, but perhaps i should change my attitudes to this.
What is the answer, i really don't know.
Jonesy23 said:
The High Street has been stuffed by being unattractive and uncompetitive. Parking charges, taxes, mobs of the unemployable filling their day at the pub, unattractive retail offers - it all adds up so unless it's something for specialist as a shop or service people don't bother. And this is something that has been true for decades.
And apparently the answer to other people finding an alternative business model with lower costs isn't to respond to this by fixing the problems but to slap a tax on to try to ruin their model for them.
Quite why anyone should listen to any half arsed idea from a shark like Ashley I don't know. He might do things to help himself but the health of retailers or the High Street in general is something that never enters his head except as an opportunity for further scavenging.
And why does anyone think that a tax slapped on top is going to do anything but hurt the consumer who pays it? It won't make the High Street better unlike (for example) increased investment and lower costs.
As for turnover taxes - surely the domain of the financially illiterate who can't understand the difference between turnover and profit? Any time those pop up they just flag another idiot. If you really want their money then be the place they funnel their operating 'expenses' into, not away from.
Whilst I agree that Ashley should shut up and focus on selling hoodies, you haven’t understood what he was saying about turnover tax. He was suggesting taxation upon businesses based upon WHERE they derive their turnover.And apparently the answer to other people finding an alternative business model with lower costs isn't to respond to this by fixing the problems but to slap a tax on to try to ruin their model for them.
Quite why anyone should listen to any half arsed idea from a shark like Ashley I don't know. He might do things to help himself but the health of retailers or the High Street in general is something that never enters his head except as an opportunity for further scavenging.
And why does anyone think that a tax slapped on top is going to do anything but hurt the consumer who pays it? It won't make the High Street better unlike (for example) increased investment and lower costs.
As for turnover taxes - surely the domain of the financially illiterate who can't understand the difference between turnover and profit? Any time those pop up they just flag another idiot. If you really want their money then be the place they funnel their operating 'expenses' into, not away from.
He should not have said half of what he said though and I think he and the select committee deserved each other in that exchange.
So said:
saaby93 said:
He needs to do fewer of these. He doesn't know how to come across well.
king clue, does he? His team of advisers, may well do, but he fking doesn't. Not a scooby. Jonesy23 said:
The High Street has been stuffed by being unattractive and uncompetitive. Parking charges, taxes, mobs of the unemployable filling their day at the pub, unattractive retail offers - it all adds up so unless it's something for specialist as a shop or service people don't bother. And this is something that has been true for decades.
And apparently the answer to other people finding an alternative business model with lower costs isn't to respond to this by fixing the problems but to slap a tax on to try to ruin their model for them.
Quite why anyone should listen to any half arsed idea from a shark like Ashley I don't know. He might do things to help himself but the health of retailers or the High Street in general is something that never enters his head except as an opportunity for further scavenging.
And why does anyone think that a tax slapped on top is going to do anything but hurt the consumer who pays it? It won't make the High Street better unlike (for example) increased investment and lower costs.
As for turnover taxes - surely the domain of the financially illiterate who can't understand the difference between turnover and profit? Any time those pop up they just flag another idiot. If you really want their money then be the place they funnel their operating 'expenses' into, not away from.
Problem is that financial engineering is being used to build a business that makes zero profit where it operates, but makes loads money in whichever location it resides. The location with zero profit has loads of consumers, but those consumers need government services which are paid for out of tax. The location where the tax is low has no consumers, and thus low taxes. And apparently the answer to other people finding an alternative business model with lower costs isn't to respond to this by fixing the problems but to slap a tax on to try to ruin their model for them.
Quite why anyone should listen to any half arsed idea from a shark like Ashley I don't know. He might do things to help himself but the health of retailers or the High Street in general is something that never enters his head except as an opportunity for further scavenging.
And why does anyone think that a tax slapped on top is going to do anything but hurt the consumer who pays it? It won't make the High Street better unlike (for example) increased investment and lower costs.
As for turnover taxes - surely the domain of the financially illiterate who can't understand the difference between turnover and profit? Any time those pop up they just flag another idiot. If you really want their money then be the place they funnel their operating 'expenses' into, not away from.
So the turnover tax is more of a “financial engineering tax”. A company has a turnover of X, and would be expected to have a profit of Y if they were trading wholly in the U.K. So they get taxed on an assumed Y. Don’t like it? Fine, you can’t sell to the U.K. anymore.
This isn’t just the high street, it needs to apply to any company that does this. Of course corporation taxes need to be low and attractive, but there are multinationals seriously taking the piss at the moment.
I prefer out of town Starbucks now with parking
It’s not just the cost of parking but I never have change and never know how long i need to put on the meter and it’s just a faff
The high street is an out dated concept and will die. This sounds incredibly simplistic but out of town places have people with cars and strangely enough never any tramps or drunks whereas the town centres and bus stations around town centres are crime hot spots
Big cities eg Leeds and manchester thrive whilst the smaller towns die
I’m amazed at how inept local councils are - genuinely amazed and they could turn things round easily
Get empty properties let on shorter leases and with less red tape
Sell off some of their own vacant premises
Reduce parking charges
Build their own car parks that are handy
Allow 2 hours free parking
It’s not just the cost of parking but I never have change and never know how long i need to put on the meter and it’s just a faff
The high street is an out dated concept and will die. This sounds incredibly simplistic but out of town places have people with cars and strangely enough never any tramps or drunks whereas the town centres and bus stations around town centres are crime hot spots
Big cities eg Leeds and manchester thrive whilst the smaller towns die
I’m amazed at how inept local councils are - genuinely amazed and they could turn things round easily
Get empty properties let on shorter leases and with less red tape
Sell off some of their own vacant premises
Reduce parking charges
Build their own car parks that are handy
Allow 2 hours free parking
gizlaroc said:
No I'm not.
I was not talking about corporation tax, the tax on profits, I only mentioned the amount they had paid as that is pretty much all they had paid.
They have avoided paying UK vat on sales too, although the UK resellers obviously pay it selling through Amazon.
The 20% online tax would have to be factored into their pricing, at the moment they can undercut everyone, offer free postage etc. because they are saving where no one else can, through tax.
You do know Amazon pay UK VAT on good sold in the UK? No clearly not.I was not talking about corporation tax, the tax on profits, I only mentioned the amount they had paid as that is pretty much all they had paid.
They have avoided paying UK vat on sales too, although the UK resellers obviously pay it selling through Amazon.
The 20% online tax would have to be factored into their pricing, at the moment they can undercut everyone, offer free postage etc. because they are saving where no one else can, through tax.
You do understand Amazon only collect the taxes it'a actually paid by the buyer? No clearly not.
rxe said:
Problem is that financial engineering is being used to build a business that makes zero profit where it operates, but makes loads money in whichever location it resides. The location with zero profit has loads of consumers, but those consumers need government services which are paid for out of tax. The location where the tax is low has no consumers, and thus low taxes.
So the turnover tax is more of a “financial engineering tax”. A company has a turnover of X, and would be expected to have a profit of Y if they were trading wholly in the U.K. So they get taxed on an assumed Y. Don’t like it? Fine, you can’t sell to the U.K. anymore.
This isn’t just the high street, it needs to apply to any company that does this. Of course corporation taxes need to be low and attractive, but there are multinationals seriously taking the piss at the moment.
Better to outlaw some of the financial engineering, or to become the place where the company resides.So the turnover tax is more of a “financial engineering tax”. A company has a turnover of X, and would be expected to have a profit of Y if they were trading wholly in the U.K. So they get taxed on an assumed Y. Don’t like it? Fine, you can’t sell to the U.K. anymore.
This isn’t just the high street, it needs to apply to any company that does this. Of course corporation taxes need to be low and attractive, but there are multinationals seriously taking the piss at the moment.
A turnover tax is a crude populist response mostly about calming the shouty than increasing revenue.
Jonesy23 said:
As for turnover taxes - surely the domain of the financially illiterate who can't understand the difference between turnover and profit? Any time those pop up they just flag another idiot. If you really want their money then be the place they funnel their operating 'expenses' into, not away from.
I think the reason people call for a tax on turnover is that they simply do not believe the declared profits of certain companies. So, for example, Amazon turns over 1 trillion pounds a year and declares a profit of £4.50 for the year. So it pays 90p in corporation tax. Can you explain in more detail what you mean by that?
To demand that an industry is ‘saved’ normally using tax revenue, because hundreds of thousands of people depend on it for their jobs is exactly what was said about British Rail after WW2 and what you would get would be a sort of nationalisation franchised to people like Ashley. It would get progressively less efficient, he would head to the Cayman Islands and its no answer.
To demand that an industry is ‘saved’ normally using tax revenue, because hundreds of thousands of people depend on it for their jobs is exactly what was said about British Rail after WW2 and what you would get would be a sort of nationalisation franchised to people like Ashley. It would get progressively less efficient, he would head to the Cayman Islands and its no answer.
poo at Paul's said:
So said:
saaby93 said:
He needs to do fewer of these. He doesn't know how to come across well.king clue, does he? His team of advisers, may well do, but he fking doesn't. Not a scooby. I clicked on the first link and not have yet looked st the second. There was. Itching in his first engage I would disagree with. In fact the questioning MP seemed to have very little grasp as to the commercials of the situation.
My nearest main town is @ 9 miles and I'm not sure when I last shopped there, probably a decade ago.
It's not just the parking, it's the travel time. What once was 20 mins (at best) is now at least double that. Why would I spend an hour and a half getting to and from somewhere if it's not essential? Add in fuel and parking costs, it doesn't make sense. With the large scale house building going on it isn't going to get better.
I would, and do, go to shops which add something over online, usually choice and service.
It's not just the parking, it's the travel time. What once was 20 mins (at best) is now at least double that. Why would I spend an hour and a half getting to and from somewhere if it's not essential? Add in fuel and parking costs, it doesn't make sense. With the large scale house building going on it isn't going to get better.
I would, and do, go to shops which add something over online, usually choice and service.
jonah35 said:
I’m amazed at how inept local councils are - genuinely amazed and they could turn things round easily
Get empty properties let on shorter leases and with less red tape
Sell off some of their own vacant premises
Reduce parking charges
Build their own car parks that are handy
Allow 2 hours free parking
But then their income stream reduces & their promotions & increased pension are less likely.Get empty properties let on shorter leases and with less red tape
Sell off some of their own vacant premises
Reduce parking charges
Build their own car parks that are handy
Allow 2 hours free parking
Brooking10 said:
poo at Paul's said:
So said:
saaby93 said:
He needs to do fewer of these. He doesn't know how to come across well.king clue, does he? His team of advisers, may well do, but he fking doesn't. Not a scooby. I clicked on the first link and not have yet looked st the second. There was. Itching in his first engage I would disagree with. In fact the questioning MP seemed to have very little grasp as to the commercials of the situation.
gizlaroc said:
steve_k said:
I think you are confusing turnover with profit, Amazon UK profits for 2016 was £26.5m and rose to nearly £80m for 2017 but they then in 2017 invested quite a lot in UK infrastructure and offset a lot of tax in the process.
Your idea of a blanket 20% tax will not work, out of a 2016 profit of £26.5m you want them to pay £3.8bn tax simply because they turn over a lot of money ignoring the fact they make a very small margin, your tax burden idea would shut them down instead of raising extra tax.
No I'm not. Your idea of a blanket 20% tax will not work, out of a 2016 profit of £26.5m you want them to pay £3.8bn tax simply because they turn over a lot of money ignoring the fact they make a very small margin, your tax burden idea would shut them down instead of raising extra tax.
I was not talking about corporation tax, the tax on profits, I only mentioned the amount they had paid as that is pretty much all they had paid.
They have avoided paying UK vat on sales too, although the UK resellers obviously pay it selling through Amazon.
The 20% online tax would have to be factored into their pricing, at the moment they can undercut everyone, offer free postage etc. because they are saving where no one else can, through tax.
You are right about companies like Amazon undercutting the competition, but this is nothing new the supermarkets did it to the local convenience stores and the larger high street stores did it to the small independent shops with their buying power and narrow margins, the online companies are just the next change to hit retail.
Edited by steve_k on Sunday 9th December 12:39
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