The death of the high street.

[Faust66]

With the OP re. Nottingham.

I work in the town centre… if you want cut price tat and rubbish you can buy anywhere, then Nottingham is for you. As has been said, the local (Labour) council are massively anti car and are determined to make the city centre traffic free if possible.

All very laudable; town centres should be pedestrian friendly IMO rather than being permanently jammed with cars. They should be pleasant places to walk around and free from a fug of diesel fumes. But you have to educate people and provide a viable system for people to get back to their cars when laden with heavy bags. As is usual with socialists however, they are do like to TELL people what to do rather than ask their opinions on their ‘vision’ for what a city centre should be. The result is that people just don’t go into town for the shops anymore if they want to drive. Shopping centres are on the ropes, smaller retailers are leaving in droves… lots of coffee shops if that’s your bag though!

My missus drove into town a couple of Saturdays ago for a mate’s birthday – didn’t want a drink as she was working the next day. Car park in the city centre charged her 13 quid for 3 hours parking!! (8-11). And they wonder why people stay away.

Compare with Beeston just a few miles away (where I live): lots of small quirky and independent shops (butchers, greengrocers and similar). Few good real ale pubs, some bookshops and a good community spirit.. The place is thriving and property prices (both rent and to buy) are soaring as people realise what the town has to offer.

Pedestrianised high street with lots of 2 quid all day car parks.

That’s how it’s done.

[Cold]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Aside from the fact that not everyone works in an office or even a workplace where having personal deliveries is possible, can you see any irony in using a shop to collect your online purchases?

[vikingaero]

What Councils don't realise is that you NEED cars. Look at any pedestrianised street, and the centre will have the usual main stores, but the periphery will be vacant/boarded up. Most pedestrianised streets become night time ghettos. By all means pedestrianise/control day time traffic, but allow cars in at night. The best streets are those with a thriving day and night life.

[Johnnytheboy]

markcoznottz said:

A lot of people go to the out of town shopping centres to waste three hours, free parking, look round, buy the kid a krispey kreme, then go for a mcds. No good for retailers.

steveo3002 said:

why do all the shops , banks , post office pander to the dole scroungers that want to wander around all day , then come 6 oclcok when workers finish and have some free time theyre all closed?

and yeah make it awkward for cars to travel into town then wonder why less folk bother

gizlaroc said:

Town centres have a few main issues.

Parking - absolute pain in the arse.
Towns are now geared up for people to spend 2, 3 or more hours in town.
Most people want to pop in to get the one thing they want, park outside or close to the shop they want to use, hop in, hop out, job done.

You've all said what I've been saying for years. Shopping centres and councils cocked up by deciding years ago to pursue the wrong kind of shoppers, the 'herbivores' if you like, who have the time to bimble about all day, make the shopping centre look nice and busy... but possibly not spend that much per head.

The 'carnivores' like me have a clearly identified goal, e.g. "I want to buy a microwave from Argos". So my desire is to park close to Argos for as little as possible, buy the microwave and leave.

When online shopping came along it's no surprise that the carnivores deserted physical shops very quickly.

gizlaroc said:

Rates and rents.
These are getting stupid....
I have seen the rates and rents for some of the stores in Norwich and it is simply not possible to run a retail store on those premises.
Back of a fag packet maths shows this quite easily. Unfortunately many don't realise what it costs to run a business, they start up, blow all the investment, go bust and the property is rented out again and the cycle continues. While it continues and there is fresh meat coming through the landlords, councils, banks etc. don't care. But there will come a time when the units sit empty.

I asked a contact in the commercial property business why, if property was empty for a long time, they didn't lower the rent? He replied "ah but that would lower the rentable value, so we wouldn't be able to borrow so much money against it to invest in other things". No, I don't get that either.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Someone on radio 4 a year or two ago made the very sensible suggestion that most high streets now cover physically too big an area. The ideal would be to bring the peripheral shops in to the middle and turn the periphery into residential. Then you wouldn't end up with so many empty units in between. Struck me as very sensible, but possibly impractical.

[egor110]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Why not leave a note for the delivery person asking if they can leave it in a shed etc ?

At the end of the day if your not in or can’t hear the doorbell what’s the delivery person supposed to do ?

[shakotan]

Rich_W said:

It kind of feels like a discount version of Croydon.

Somewhere akin a Basra then?

[Pan Pan Pan]

So the basics are, that for years the towns and controlling authorities have tried to make it as difficult, expensive, problematical, and unpleasant as possible for people from the surrounding areas to get into the high street via cars. And having succeeded in putting people off from getting into the high street by car, they are now panicking because very few are people are now actually visiting the high street, Especially when those people may be buying heavy items, or a lot of general shopping including temperature sensitive goods, which they then have to carry home quickly / somehow?

[skinnyman]

It's even better in Derby. The city has been identified as having poor air quality near the town centre, and has to improve it, one of the potential options is a congestion zone charge, which would truly be the final nail in the coffin.

[gizlaroc]

Johnnytheboy said:

I asked a contact in the commercial property business why, if property was empty for a long time, they didn't lower the rent? He replied "ah but that would lower the rentable value, so we wouldn't be able to borrow so much money against it to invest in other things". No, I don't get that either.

This is a massive problem.

Property is often better sat on your books empty and overvalued than it is rented out for the true value. Rent out all the property you have based on your last valuation rather than the true value and suddenly you might find yourself in a bit of a pickle.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

How many towns across the UK do you think have enough offices near them to justify having coffee shops and restaurants?

There is not that many, only the major cities tend to have this, most towns and city centres would be empty if the shops disappeared.

[So]

As Gizlaroc points out, renting units below the last rent can cause lots of problems, particularly if there is bank lending involved.

Commercial property value is a function of the rent (in part). If the landlord drops the rent the property effectively falls in value and it may breach lending covenants. Furthermore it gets the banks wondering about the true value of other stock owned by the landlord and financed by them.

I would not want a lot of retail property on our books at the moment.

[Johnnytheboy]

So said:

As Gizlaroc points out, renting units below the last rent can cause lots of problems, particularly if there is bank lending involved.

Commercial property value is a function of the rent (in part). If the landlord drops the rent the property effectively falls in value and it may breach lending covenants. Furthermore it gets the banks wondering about the true value of other stock owned by the landlord and financed by them.

I would not want a lot of retail property on our books at the moment.

Which sounds very bubbly to me...

[Rovinghawk]

So said:

As Gizlaroc points out, renting units below the last rent can cause lots of problems, particularly if there is bank lending involved.

Commercial property value is a function of the rent (in part). If the landlord drops the rent the property effectively falls in value and it may breach lending covenants. Furthermore it gets the banks wondering about the true value of other stock owned by the landlord and financed by them.

I would not want a lot of retail property on our books at the moment.

I was debating moving some of my portfolio from residential to commercial- you're making me reconsider.

[gizlaroc]

Nothing wrong with commercial, stick it in storage units and I bet you do OK.

[Rovinghawk]

gizlaroc said:

Nothing wrong with commercial, stick it in storage units and I bet you do OK.

Thank you. Any additional suggestions are very welcome.

[gizlaroc]

I would seek some proper advice, but it seems large warehouse storage space is what a few of my mates who look after funds are doing rather well with at the moment.

[Rovinghawk]

gizlaroc said:

I would seek some proper advice, but it seems large warehouse storage space is what a few of my mates who look after funds are doing rather well with at the moment.

Thanks again.

[Johnnytheboy]

Pan Pan Pan said:

So the basics are, that for years the towns and controlling authorities have tried to make it as difficult, expensive, problematical, and unpleasant as possible for people from the surrounding areas to get into the high street via cars. And having succeeded in putting people off from getting into the high street by car, they are now panicking because very few are people are now actually visiting the high street, Especially when those people may be buying heavy items, or a lot of general shopping including temperature sensitive goods, which they then have to carry home quickly / somehow?

So instead we get it delivered, and because we are at work we get it delivered to work. So now the Mayor of London wants that to stop...

[eldar]

gizlaroc said:

I would seek some proper advice, but it seems large warehouse storage space is what a few of my mates who look after funds are doing rather well with at the moment.

True, but its getting to be a rather crowded market. Might be a little late to jump in. Or so my nephew in the business says.

[jamoor]

TeaNoSugar said:

jamoor said:

In sheffield city centre they used to have a council car park that was worth the money, the spaces were large so parking wasn't an issue.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3786587,-1.47383...

I went there recently and they redrew the lines and made the spaces tiny meaning you couldnt park 3 range rover sized cars next to each other.

i won't be going back there again.

Parking is the least of your worries in Sheffield. Just park in John Lewis car park like everyone else does. It's the only half decent shop in the city centre anyway. As a place to shop, Sheffield is absolutely dreadful. Most people who buy in the shops go to Meadowhell.

As for cultural/evening attractions; I wouldn't even consider going out for an evening in the centre these days. Why would anyone go to the chain pub stholes on West St, or Division St when you could go to Kelham/Neepsend, Broomhill, Sharrow Vale, Abbeydale etc.?

Funnily enough I went to see what the Xmas market was all about (it wasn't much)

[jamoor]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Slightly off topic, (because I do think parking access to high streets is a key issue here) but charging high prices for parking to visit patients in hospitals is disgraceful.
No one wants to go to hospitals either as a patient, or someone visiting a patient, and yet exorbitant fees are charged. making visiting a hospital an even worse experience than it already might be.
At least visiting a high street should be a pleasurable experience, so why don't local authorities make a start on re generating the high street by first doing something to aid, getting in and parking there? Some towns have done this, in one they let the local school playground be used as a free car park at weekends, and evenings, and that particular high street is consequents bustling for much of the time. Some LA`s are too thick for their own good.

Theres a good chance that if you're going to hospital as a patient, you can't/wont take public transport either.