8P S3 - What's come loose on the undercarriage?

[Hifty]

As per the post title, I've been losing some oil recently (as well as coolant). Returned it to the dealership to diagnose but they couldn't find anything. I've just looked underneath and noticed something fairly obvious.. Looks to be the source of the oil leak but can anyone tell me what it is so I can give these experts a nudge in the right direction?

Cheers,

[thebraketester]

I think that wire is for the oil level sensor. Should be clipped to the subframe.

[Hifty]

thebraketester said:

I think that wire is for the oil level sensor. Should be clipped to the subframe.

That would make sense, thanks.

Any idea where the oil could be coming from? You can see the drip on the right hand side of the sensor.

[thebraketester]

They couldn’t find anything? Hmm. Take it to somewhere that has a clue.

Could be turbo line or rear breather lines leaking.

[Hifty]

thebraketester said:

They couldn’t find anything? Hmm. Take it to somewhere that has a clue.

Could be turbo line or rear breather lines leaking.

I've not had it long so is still under warranty with the dealer. I'll go ahead and get someone else to take a look and report back to them.

Cheers for the help!

[rottenegg]

You won't know where the source of the leak is from those pictures. Oil leaks wick their way around the engine and subframe like blotting paper. The leak is substantial enough to be easily traced on a lift though, so get the garage to have a look.

[Hifty]

Just to bump this and ask for further advice... (Really not having any luck with cars..)

I've since taken it back to the garage for a check as the oil just continued leaking out. I've had a phone call today advising that it appears the oil leak is coming from one of the cylinder heads. He's told me this may be a pricey fix but until they investigate further, he can't really specify how much.

I purchased the car back in July and was told the vehicle had just had a full engine rebuild - I have their proof of this. I told him this and that I was under the impression it came with 12-months cover but he told it doesn't really matter as the cylinder head wouldn't have been checked on an engine rebuild...?

I was also told the car would have a 12-month warranty with them but today was told this is actually through a 3rd party programme (motorway direct) and whilst they've agreed it's under cover, there's a max claim limit of £1000.

Is he trying to pull a fast one or is the cylinder head not something that would be checked on an engine rebuild?

[thebraketester]

Where are you located?

[Hifty]

thebraketester said:

Where are you located?

Lancashire.

[Hifty]

Just had a phone call stating that the cylinder head has cracked and it will be nearing £4.5k to fix.
I was told I had full 12-month warranty when purchasing the car but they've now stated it's through a 3rd party warranty service who have a claim limit of £1,000 meaning I need to raise the £3.5k.

They've stated they won't foot the bill and will be calling tomorrow with various 'options' for me. In the meantime, I'm eager to get some advice on this one. Fairly shocked that they're rejecting to fix it considering they rebuilt the engine only 7 months ago and now the cylinder head has cracked. Wouldn't that have been checked on the initial rebuild?

Any info is much appreciated.

Edited by Hifty on Wednesday 13th February 10:43

[CzechRS]

Not fit for purpose, they don’t have leg to stand on imo. They need to fix foc.

Found this very useful when I rejected my BMW. https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/...

[Dinoboy]

Bought from Audi main dealer?

[ZX10R NIN]

I hate to say this but this is a case of not doing your checks, you should have checked the warranty conditions before buying you're on PH & must have seen threads about warranty issues.

The head wouldn't have cracked when you first had the car it'll happen due to the heat from cylinder 2, I'd guess the rings were breaking down hence the oil.

I would argue the point that them giving you the advice further contributed to the damage to the engine & as such that they should be contributing to the cost (I'd try haggling 1k from them)

So now you are left with the option of:

A) Buying a used engine & carrying on with the car or selling it.

B) Find the 2.5k for a new (after claiming the max from the warranty company & hopefully getting a contribution from the dealer) engine.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Wednesday 13th February 11:02

[VAGLover]

CzechRS said:

Not fit for purpose, they don’t have leg to stand on imo. They need to fix foc.

Found this very useful when I rejected my BMW. https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/...

Well he’s had it for more than 30 days, so the onerous is he now had to prove it had a defect when he bought it and it wasn’t caused by him or general wear and tear, nearly impossible.

Better luck next time chap

[thebraketester]

You can get a second hand s3 engine for about 2k so that’s what I would do.

[Hifty]

Thanks for the replies all.

In hindsight (and after what I went through with my car purchase) I realise I should have done further checks, but when I'm told it's just had an engine rebuild and comes with a full 12-month warranty, I just took it for what it was and trusted them with it being a main dealership. Another important lesson learnt I guess.

I'm going to push the fact that because I highlighted this after 5-months, they should accept responsibility and repair it. We'll see how that goes.

[rottenegg]

So the engine was rebuilt by the dealer who sold you the car, and they're still rejecting the claim? It's a bit harsh shunting their shoddy workmanship onto the 3rd party's warranty Ts & Cs but not entirely surprising. What a bunch o' bustards. £4.5K is also a complete rip for replacing a head.

An entire CDL 'long block' from the factory costs £4K! It comes from Germany in a crate, ready to accept ancillaries and drop into the car, which is more reassuring than some incompetent twerp over here attempting to 'rebuild' a busted engine. Rebuilding just isn't worth the time or money, and the end result is never as good as the factory's effort.....as you have discovered unfortunately.

Best of luck with it, although I suspect your car was thrashed and/or heavily modified, hence needing a rebuild in the first place.

[Hifty]

rottenegg said:

So the engine was rebuilt by the dealer who sold you the car, and they're still rejecting the claim? It's a bit harsh shunting their shoddy workmanship onto the 3rd party's warranty Ts & Cs but not entirely surprising. What a bunch o' bustards. £4.5K is also a complete rip for replacing a head.

An entire CDL 'long block' from the factory costs £4K! It comes from Germany in a crate, ready to accept ancillaries and drop into the car, which is more reassuring than some incompetent twerp over here attempting to 'rebuild' a busted engine. Rebuilding just isn't worth the time or money, and the end result is never as good as the factory's effort.....as you have discovered unfortunately.

Best of luck with it, although I suspect your car was thrashed and/or heavily modified, hence needing a rebuild in the first place.

Yeah, that's my thought process on the situation. His reasoning is that although they rebuilt it, they wouldn't have known the cylinder head would crack. I would have thought it'd crack due to being a poor repair though, no?

They've said it'll cost £2k for the head and likely around £2.5k in labour..

And thanks, the salesman originally said there had been a misfire present for around 5k miles and no matter how hard they looked they couldn't figure out why and so Audi informed them to just do an engine rebuild to appease the customer.. He then rejected it on that basis and they sold it to me. No other reason than that, though I'm now questioning whether this is the truth...

[rottenegg]

Hifty said:

rottenegg said:

So the engine was rebuilt by the dealer who sold you the car, and they're still rejecting the claim? It's a bit harsh shunting their shoddy workmanship onto the 3rd party's warranty Ts & Cs but not entirely surprising. What a bunch o' bustards. £4.5K is also a complete rip for replacing a head.

An entire CDL 'long block' from the factory costs £4K! It comes from Germany in a crate, ready to accept ancillaries and drop into the car, which is more reassuring than some incompetent twerp over here attempting to 'rebuild' a busted engine. Rebuilding just isn't worth the time or money, and the end result is never as good as the factory's effort.....as you have discovered unfortunately.

Best of luck with it, although I suspect your car was thrashed and/or heavily modified, hence needing a rebuild in the first place.

Yeah, that's my thought process on the situation. His reasoning is that although they rebuilt it, they wouldn't have known the cylinder head would crack. I would have thought it'd crack due to being a poor repair though, no?

They've said it'll cost £2k for the head and likely around £2.5k in labour..

And thanks, the salesman originally said there had been a misfire present for around 5k miles and no matter how hard they looked they couldn't figure out why and so Audi informed them to just do an engine rebuild to appease the customer.. He then rejected it on that basis and they sold it to me. No other reason than that, though I'm now questioning whether this is the truth...

You have my sympathies. Buying a used car these days is a gamble enough, let alone from a main dealer, where you would expect a top notch example with a proper no quibble warranty.

Pressure testing the head for cracks is part of a [reputable] rebuild service, so they clearly reused the old one without checking it. It was probably warped as well, which wouldn't help matters.

I'm surprised Head Office suggested a time consuming rebuild. They always go with the least labour option, along with the smallest likelihood of the customer coming back, so a whole new engine would normally be the instruction! I'm pretty sure VW's accountants have a massive spreadsheet and daily meetings figuring this stuff out, right down to the last washer and screw.

Someone drove it misfiring for 5K miles?! Wow, words fail me!

Just for general info, there are 3 common causes for persistent misfires on the S3 engine, which aren't related to a rogue sensor:

1) Bad injector(s).
2) weak exhaust valve springs.
3) Cracked piston ring land(s).

1 - is common enough for dealers to know all about it.
2 - was subject to a recall or TSB, either way, dealers should know about it.
3 - usually the result of an aggressive remap, or in this case, potentially from lean running for 5000 miles.

1 - is usually exhibited at low engine speeds and idle.
2 - is exhibited at high rpm and/or load.
3 - is usually exhibited at low engines speeds and idle, along with a bit of blue/white smoke after a period of over run.

My suspicion was the car was traded in with a knackered engine and they tried to get it out of the door as cheaply (to them) as possible, but I can also see a 5000 mile undiagnosed misfire being equally likely, bearing in mind main dealers aren't known for the quality of their diagnosis, or workmanship!

Either way it's not fair you are lumbered with the bill. I'm not sure what to suggest on that front, sorry!

Edit: if you are forced to pay that kind of money to sort it, I would personally demand a new engine. A rebuild of a rebuild just isn't acceptable.

Edited by rottenegg on Wednesday 13th February 16:46

[Hifty]

rottenegg said:

You have my sympathies. Buying a used car these days is a gamble enough, let alone from a main dealer, where you would expect a top notch example with a proper no quibble warranty.

Pressure testing the head for cracks is part of a [reputable] rebuild service, so they clearly reused the old one without checking it. It was probably warped as well, which wouldn't help matters.

I'm surprised Head Office suggested a time consuming rebuild. They always go with the least labour option, along with the smallest likelihood of the customer coming back, so a whole new engine would normally be the instruction! I'm pretty sure VW's accountants have a massive spreadsheet and daily meetings figuring this stuff out, right down to the last washer and screw.

Someone drove it misfiring for 5K miles?! Wow, words fail me!

Just for general info, there are 3 common causes for persistent misfires on the S3 engine, which aren't related to a rogue sensor:

1) Bad injector(s).
2) weak exhaust valve springs.
3) Cracked piston ring land(s).

1 - is common enough for dealers to know all about it.
2 - was subject to a recall or TSB, either way, dealers should know about it.
3 - usually the result of an aggressive remap, or in this case, potentially from lean running for 5000 miles.

1 - is usually exhibited at low engine speeds and idle.
2 - is exhibited at high rpm and/or load.
3 - is usually exhibited at low engines speeds and idle, along with a bit of blue/white smoke after a period of over run.

My suspicion was the car was traded in with a knackered engine and they tried to get it out of the door as cheaply (to them) as possible, but I can also see a 5000 mile undiagnosed misfire being equally likely, bearing in mind main dealers aren't known for the quality of their diagnosis, or workmanship!

Either way it's not fair you are lumbered with the bill. I'm not sure what to suggest on that front, sorry!

Edit: if you are forced to pay that kind of money to sort it, I would personally demand a new engine. A rebuild of a rebuild just isn't acceptable.

Edited by rottenegg on Wednesday 13th February 16:46

Thanks, appreciate the info.

That's what I'm pushing with them really, though he's stating quite clearly that they're not that interested in repairing the engine as it's not economical to myself or them. He did however state that what they may well do is just weld the cylinder head as a short term fix and 'get it out of the door'. I wish I'd have recorded the phone call to play that one back..!

Surely the crack would have been detected on the initial build - he said no, it wasn't present. I said it must have been caused by a poor rebuild, they said no and I've just been unfortunate that this has happened since.
Because I also booked the car in within 6-months showing a cylinder issue, that this gives me good cause to reject. But again, it'd be difficult to prove this was an issue at the time of purchase.

It just seems unfair that I'm having to foot the bill for this and I think it may just be a case of trying to get a good deal from them. They're offering me trade value on another vehicle and have said they can get me a car at book price. With the trade value though, this will now be £3000 less than what I purchased for the car which I think is a bit of a joke - but he said that's a fair offer considering they're aware it needs the money spent on it..