How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 8)
Discussion
Robertj21a said:
Some good, interesting, stuff on here today. Can anyone link me to the EU wording they have used to define their long term vision and plan ?
You need to start with the Schuman Declaration - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do...Then work you way through the various Treaties, starting with the Treaty of Paris and Europe Declaration in 1951.
The next milestone was the Treaty of Rome in 1957. The very first stated aim of which, 'Ever closer Union', appears in the Preamble.
To make that happen various institutions were created, namely
An Assembly (European Parliament).
A Council.
A Commission.
A Court of Justice.
All the hallmarks of a State: in this case a supra-national one. A far cry from a mere trading bloc which was the big sell in 1973.
ARTICLE 189 said:
In order to carry out their task the Council and the Commission shall, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty, make regulations, issue directives, take decisions, make recommendations or deliver opinions. A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. A directive shall be binding, as to the result to be achieved, upon each Member State to which it is addressed, but shall leave to the national authorities the choice of form and methods. A decision shall be binding in its entirety upon those to whom it is addressed. Recommendations and opinions shall have no binding force.
In the UK the supreme legislative body is Parliament: it is 'sovereign' (not The Sovereign which is something else entirely). The electorate gets to decide who represents them.Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
Red Devil said:
In the UK the supreme legislative body is Parliament: it is 'sovereign' (not The Sovereign which is something else entirely). The electorate gets to decide who represents them.
Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
Excellent, informative post. Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
I fear it will be greeted by some with:
1. 'but I was fine with the UK eventually becoming part of a single state'
2. 'but we had a veto and could stop all the things we didn't want'
3. 'but we could have stayed and changed it all from within'
4. 'but we didn't have to integrate further, we were in exactly the ideal situation that we wanted to be in'
All of which are entirely reasonable positions for Remainers to hold..... BUT, it also rather gives the lie to the notion that Remainers were all voting for the same thing or even knew what they were voting for....
XJSJohn said:
anyone brave enough to summarise this thread for a Brit returning to the UK next month?
"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
[img] https://goo.gl/images/RJJ5NM [/img]"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
XJSJohn said:
andymadmak said:
XJSJohn said:
anyone brave enough to summarise this thread for a Brit returning to the UK next month?
"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
https://goo.gl/images/RJJ5NM"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
FiF said:
XJSJohn said:
andymadmak said:
XJSJohn said:
anyone brave enough to summarise this thread for a Brit returning to the UK next month?
"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
https://goo.gl/images/RJJ5NM"lights touch paper, dusts hands, walks away whistling .... "
Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
gooner1 said:
mx5nut said:
Who cares what they think? They are just biased towards reality.
Possibly, but whose reality?You need to do it that way as otherwise you need to pay to get the article.
I'm not sure what "whose reality" means as it sounds a little odd, but I don't think the FT are renowned for "fake news" or scaremongering.
XJSJohn said:
its all a bit odd to me, having been living in a world where WTO trade treaties and individually negotiated country to country treaties are normal, where you need to show a passport and go through customs and immigration to travel to and visit another country, and where everyone needs visas to work or stay for a long period of time in any other country, even a neighbouring one.
Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Don’t you dare waltz on here with your common sense points of view. Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Troubleatmill said:
XJSJohn said:
its all a bit odd to me, having been living in a world where WTO trade treaties and individually negotiated country to country treaties are normal, where you need to show a passport and go through customs and immigration to travel to and visit another country, and where everyone needs visas to work or stay for a long period of time in any other country, even a neighbouring one.
Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Don’t you dare waltz on here with your common sense points of view. Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Red Devil said:
Robertj21a said:
Some good, interesting, stuff on here today. Can anyone link me to the EU wording they have used to define their long term vision and plan ?
You need to start with the Schuman Declaration - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do...Then work you way through the various Treaties, starting with the Treaty of Paris and Europe Declaration in 1951.
The next milestone was the Treaty of Rome in 1957. The very first stated aim of which, 'Ever closer Union', appears in the Preamble.
To make that happen various institutions were created, namely
An Assembly (European Parliament).
A Council.
A Commission.
A Court of Justice.
All the hallmarks of a State: in this case a supra-national one. A far cry from a mere trading bloc which was the big sell in 1973.
ARTICLE 189 said:
In order to carry out their task the Council and the Commission shall, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty, make regulations, issue directives, take decisions, make recommendations or deliver opinions. A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. A directive shall be binding, as to the result to be achieved, upon each Member State to which it is addressed, but shall leave to the national authorities the choice of form and methods. A decision shall be binding in its entirety upon those to whom it is addressed. Recommendations and opinions shall have no binding force.
In the UK the supreme legislative body is Parliament: it is 'sovereign' (not The Sovereign which is something else entirely). The electorate gets to decide who represents them.Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
Excellent stuff - many thanks for that.
.
andymadmak said:
Red Devil said:
In the UK the supreme legislative body is Parliament: it is 'sovereign' (not The Sovereign which is something else entirely). The electorate gets to decide who represents them.
Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
Excellent, informative post. Not so in the EU. Its Parliament is very far from 'sovereign': it is little more than a rubber stamp. The real power resides with the Council and the Commission.
The Council is composed of ministers from each country but the the members of the Commission are unaccountable political appointees..
It is blindingly obvious from the above that the UK Parliament is no longer 'sovereign' in its own country.
The development timeline so far is here - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/history/?filter...
It is an evolutionary project. Salami tactics: slice by slice towards the ultimate goal: total integration. Never forget the very long term nature of the project.
That is what so many people fail to grasp. A key question is whether it will be able to withstand the structural problems which are already evident. It may yet crash and burn before reaches its goal. Whichever way it goes it won't be pretty.
Just like in 1973 everyone is focusing on trade to the total exclusion of the fiscal and political elements. It was a mistake to do so then and it is now.
I fear it will be greeted by some with:
1. 'but I was fine with the UK eventually becoming part of a single state'
2. 'but we had a veto and could stop all the things we didn't want'
3. 'but we could have stayed and changed it all from within'
4. 'but we didn't have to integrate further, we were in exactly the ideal situation that we wanted to be in'
All of which are entirely reasonable positions for Remainers to hold..... BUT, it also rather gives the lie to the notion that Remainers were all voting for the same thing or even knew what they were voting for....
XJSJohn said:
its all a bit odd to me, having been living in a world where WTO trade treaties and individually negotiated country to country treaties are normal, where you need to show a passport and go through customs and immigration to travel to and visit another country, and where everyone needs visas to work or stay for a long period of time in any other country, even a neighbouring one.
Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Funny that, it's just what many others might also be thinking too. Yet strangely everything still seems to move on and there is always produce on teh shelves ... just seems like everyone has gone a bit soft / lazy ....
well, thats this can of worms open, i will just leave it here for now....
Far too much of this 'End of the world' nonsense.
.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: A "pro-remain propaganda sheet".
I guess they're making it up then.
A month to go and pretty much no trade deals in place. Yeah, it's the FT that has an odd view of reality.
Didn't say they were wrong on this particular issue, just saying the FT is not objective and has in fact one of the strongest pro-remain biases of any newspaper. I guess they're making it up then.
A month to go and pretty much no trade deals in place. Yeah, it's the FT that has an odd view of reality.
mx5nut said:
toppstuff said:
Jimboka said:
Well that’s a shock. ‘easiest deal in history’ Fox has failed to deliver :-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533
Other media reporting that Japanese are seriously not impressed with Fox and the UK team. They have rejected our idea of the same deal as the rest of E.U and are playing hardball. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533
Again.
meanwhile they can make cars in the uk or pay a 10% duty like the Euro's will if they don't do a free trade deal...
Just heard the news German manufacturing is at its lowest for years ...
WTO A24 brexit THEN do deals lets not rush into anything when we don't need too...
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