How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 8)

[wc98]

mattmurdock said:

That is because that is exactly what the word represent means - to represent someone, not to be someone. They are not puppet extensions of other people.

Many on here would say that Ian Blackford's constant bleating about Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will is annoying, but using your argument he is full well representing the will of the people of Scotland who clearly voted in favour of remain.

The issue with statistics is they can be cut a number of different ways to support the argument that something is the will of some subset or section of people.

The point of Parliamentary representatives and Parliamentary Sovereignty is to provide informed representatives who are able to make their own minds up, which is the absolute definition of democracy compared to dictatorship, where a single viewpoint or single person suppresses all other opinions, often via violence.

i would love to see you explain that to the people of say boston and skegness and see if they agree with you when the government has handed the decision to the electorate and stated they will implement the decision.

[mattmurdock]

crankedup said:

Put this forward again as the question remains unanswered, being as the debate is featured around the issue of representation / instruction I am interested in your and others pov.

In answer to your question, I absolutely agree, as the outcome was always going to be pointless it should never have been put to a referendum in the first place.

[ElectricSoup]

amusingduck said:

ElectricSoup said:

I happen to think that the illegality of the Leave campaign should render the result invalid.

I think it's funny that you've spent your morning telling people all about our constitution and how technically this, and advisory that.

and then you post that, less than a week since the legal challenge on those very grounds was rejected

Citation please, so that I know what you're talking about.

I have not used the word "technically" once. You seem to be confusing it with "Constitutionally". You might also want to consider my posts which have outlined my thoughts around where I think we will end up (i.e. we're still going to leave the EU), before unrolling the usual feeble emojis.

[Helicopter123]

Sounds as if the ERG are poised to capitulate to and support the PM.

Will they be called 'enemies of the people' now as well?

[crankedup]

Roman Rhodes said:

Tuna said:

Roman Rhodes said:

The trouble with "disenfranchised" becoming the cliche de jour is that people use the word inappropriately. If you think the 17.4m are only concerned about leaving the EU then fair enough (they're still not disenfranchised though) but I can guarantee you are wrong.

Somewhat of a fantasy to see Farage going from failing to get elected 7(?) times to being Prime Minister isn't it?

I agree Farage's party isn't going to storm the elections, but let's be honest - one of the big messages of the Leave campaign was that we had no influence over the 'unelected elite'. Disenfranchisement is exactly the right word if you demonstrate to 17.4 million people that they were right - their voices are not being heard. It stops being about leaving the EU pretty quickly and becomes about whether their vote actually has any consequence or meaning.

People fret about popularism and then strangely believe you can stop an idea from being popular.

Yes, but the referendum result and what subsequently happens is one thing and a General Election is another. Even if all 17.4m feel that their referendum vote has been disrespected and ignored I don't believe they will abandon all other concerns and simply focus on one (very important) issue. Putting aside 'issues' in general many people are lifelong voters for one party irrespective of circumstance anyway.

People of the U.K. do seem tolerant of many things, however this issue is so important to individuals that I agree with other commentators who are broadcasting that trust is broken in our politics. Suggestions that voters will simply grunt and get on with political life as it’s always been, is nigh on dead.

[wc98]

bhstewie said:

Yet another business owner mentioning Brexit uncertainty after poor results caused by poor management decisions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483

"It blamed a rise in labour costs, interest payments, utility bills, repairs and depreciation for the fall. Although profits fell sharply, sales at the chain are continuing to rise.

Wetherspoon's revenues rose by 7%, and like-for-like sales by more than 6%"

isn't the standard reply to this "unless of course you know more than the man that runs the business"

[amusingduck]

ElectricSoup said:

amusingduck said:

ElectricSoup said:

I happen to think that the illegality of the Leave campaign should render the result invalid.

I think it's funny that you've spent your morning telling people all about our constitution and how technically this, and advisory that.

and then you post that, less than a week since the legal challenge on those very grounds was rejected

Citation please, so that I know what you're talking about.

I have not used the word "technically" once. You seem to be confusing it with "Constitutionally". You might also want to consider my posts which have outlined my thoughts around where I think we will end up (i.e. we're still going to leave the EU), before unrolling the usual feeble emojis.

I refer to this
https://order-order.com/2019/03/08/judge-crushes-r...

Please retract your hurtful comment about my feeble emojis

[Elysium]

don'tbesilly said:

Elysium said:

don'tbesilly said:

There seems to be a very strong argument going on this morning as to just why a 2nd referendum is a pointless and futile way forward.

The Remainers seem to be suggesting that ignoring the first vote is perfectly acceptable whilst putting forward suggestions as to how best to engineer a 2nd referendum win for Remain.

Of course the 2nd referendum can't possibly be ignored because it suits this time around, yet based on their own arguments this morning their win can just as easily be blatantly ignored because Parliament ignored the first.

Will the second have any more validity/ credibility/ legitimacy to the first?

Your understanding of the discussion is flawed, which is causing you to assign incorrect motivations to other people actions.

I beg to differ, but feel free to draw your own conclusions.

My point is that you have already drawn your own conclusions, which are based more on your preconceived opinion than actual statements made in support of a second referendum.

I have very clearly set out justifications for a second ref over a number of weeks. I have also said repeatedly that it is not remotely about ignoring the first vote or engineering a remain win.

Despite that, you are still using that rhetoric. Your mind appears to be closed, regardless of what people say.

[psi310398]

Helicopter123 said:

Sounds as if the ERG are poised to capitulate to and support the PM.

Will they be called 'enemies of the people' now as well?

It would make it easier to paint all MPs as mendacious, self-serving skunks, wouldn't it? And thus it would certainly be grist to Farage's mill.

But I can't see Bill Cash and co changing their lifetime views. Some ERG might capitulate but many won't is my guess.

[bitchstewie]

wc98 said:

bhstewie said:

Yet another business owner mentioning Brexit uncertainty after poor results caused by poor management decisions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483

"It blamed a rise in labour costs, interest payments, utility bills, repairs and depreciation for the fall. Although profits fell sharply, sales at the chain are continuing to rise.

Wetherspoon's revenues rose by 7%, and like-for-like sales by more than 6%"

isn't the standard reply to this "unless of course you know more than the man that runs the business"

Brexit supporting businessman issues poor business performance statement and slips Brexit reference in there = fine.

I am, of course, slightly messing

[youngsyr]

In case anyone's interested, you can find out how your (or any) MP voted in any vote here:

https://www.mysociety.org/wehelpyou/find-out-how-y...

[crankedup]

PurpleMoonlight said:

don'tbesilly said:

Will the second have any more validity/ credibility/ legitimacy to the first?

Yup.

Steady, you are increasingly in danger of being identified as being the missing person attached to the twins.Triplets.

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

i would love to see you explain that to the people of say boston and skegness and see if they agree with you when the government has handed the decision to the electorate and stated they will implement the decision.

The government asked for the opinion of the electorate, and made a bunch of promises about that opinion. They have then worked for several years to implement that decision.

At no point was the decision of all 17.4 million people who voted leave simply to trigger Article 50 and walk away on WTO rules. This very thread shows that.

Therefore, Parliament was obliged to use their own best judgement on how implement the decision to leave, whilst keeping in mind the national interests for the economy, security and international obligations, and whilst taking into account their own constituents views.

None of what has happened so far indicates that Parliament as a whole do not want to implement the decision of the referendum, it just shows the complexities of taking all of the above into consideration.

Personally, I am certain that we will leave at some point, as a second referendum is extremely unlikely, MPs have themselves ruled out the constitutional shenanigans of trying to wrest control of House business from the government, and now the focus is on how we reach a deal which can satisfy the majority of the House.

It looks like a farce, but it is a pretty firm representation of the freedoms we all enjoy.

[psi310398]

bhstewie said:

wc98 said:

bhstewie said:

Yet another business owner mentioning Brexit uncertainty after poor results caused by poor management decisions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483

"It blamed a rise in labour costs, interest payments, utility bills, repairs and depreciation for the fall. Although profits fell sharply, sales at the chain are continuing to rise.

Wetherspoon's revenues rose by 7%, and like-for-like sales by more than 6%"

isn't the standard reply to this "unless of course you know more than the man that runs the business"

Brexit supporting businessman issues poor business performance statement and slips Brexit reference in there = fine.

I am, of course, slightly messing

There is, of course, no reason why he shouldn't draw attention to the damaging behaviour of the government and Remainers generally in undermining Brexit and confidence in the economy as a whole.

[Scrump]

Continued here:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...