Is this homophobia dressed up as parents' rights?
Discussion
sgtBerbatov said:
It's a British values lesson and history. Part of the British values thing is that Britain is a peace keeping force that helps people in far away lands and it's all lovely and you see the world. It is and always has been the way the army have been presented. Yet you only look to the last Iraq and Afghanistan wars to see thugs work in the Army and they tortured people who were innocent. Those thugs probably didn't know (or didn't care) about what happened in Northern Ireland either. But if everyone was to just "let it go" then what stops people repeating what happened in the past?
Maybe the values are capturing what we aspire to and should aim at? As opposed to being some declaration or claim of what have always done since year dot ?History should be taught, its lessons are important and shape the values we should aim for today. Those values should also be taught but they're not the same thing.
joshcowin said:
gregs656 said:
joshcowin said:
I would send my child to school for academic reasons, I would not want/expect their morals or standards to be dictated to by the state!
I don't believe that any child who has gone to school, at any period in time, has experienced it purely academically. It is as much a social experience is an academic one.Teaching children about the existence of LGBT people and that those people are normal people and it's nothing to be ashamed of is not dictating morals.
I take your point about the social element of school, and I completely agree. However the state is dictating morals, some religious groups don't agree with the state, that is their right!
How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
joshcowin said:
As I said why them and not the hundreds of other minorities?
I take your point about the social element of school, and I completely agree. However the state is dictating morals, some religious groups don't agree with the state, that is their right!
It's nothing to do with minorities and everything to do with protected characteristics (as defined in the Equality Act (2010))I take your point about the social element of school, and I completely agree. However the state is dictating morals, some religious groups don't agree with the state, that is their right!
In any case I would also say that being a minority is neither here nor there, really, unless there is a history or ongoing element of prejudice against that minority. There is no doubt that the LGBT community have an extensive and ongoing problem with prejudice that is mostly the fault of various religions.
And no, the state is not dictating morals, educating children about LGBT people has a moral element but fundamentally it is a factual exercise.
Education is not about being taught things you only agree with.
Buggles said:
sgtBerbatov said:
It's a British values lesson and history. Part of the British values thing is that Britain is a peace keeping force that helps people in far away lands and it's all lovely and you see the world. It is and always has been the way the army have been presented. Yet you only look to the last Iraq and Afghanistan wars to see thugs work in the Army and they tortured people who were innocent. Those thugs probably didn't know (or didn't care) about what happened in Northern Ireland either. But if everyone was to just "let it go" then what stops people repeating what happened in the past?
Thugs in Iraq and Afghanistan torturing innocents? Now I'm really interested. joshcowin said:
However the state is dictating morals, some religious groups don't agree with the state, that is their right!
If the child is going to grow up to be a citizen of a particular country, doesn't that country have a responsibility in how to educate the child?As the saying goes, parents (and their religions) have responsibilities not rights in respect of their children.
desolate said:
amusingduck said:
Which minorities do you think the school should be teaching kids about, but aren't?
How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
I think a lot of people think kids are getting taught about the joys of a rusty trombone. How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
That was back when a family would be lucky to have just the one computer, now everyone's got one at all times!
amusingduck said:
Which minorities do you think the school should be teaching kids about, but aren't?
How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
This is my point I don't think they should, for the very reason where do you draw the line? How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
We had afghan refugees at my school, we had traveller children, we had immigrants from several countries, we had families in poverty, we had children in foster care, we didn't need to be sat down in a class room in order to learn how to treat them, and we certainly didn't need telling they existed!
Zigster said:
If the child is going to grow up to be a citizen of a particular country, doesn't that country have a responsibility in how to educate the child?
As the saying goes, parents (and their religions) have responsibilities not rights in respect of their children.
Yes academically! Any and every country would want well qualified/educated citizens. As the saying goes, parents (and their religions) have responsibilities not rights in respect of their children.
That doesn't mean politicians and bureaucrats (ofsted) should dictate to a child what is right and wrong, if I had a child I would be responsible for that! The law is the law but moral standards are a vastly different thing!
joshcowin said:
Yes academically! Any and every country would want well qualified/educated citizens.
That doesn't mean politicians and bureaucrats (ofsted) should dictate to a child what is right and wrong, if I had a child I would be responsible for that! The law is the law but moral standards are a vastly different thing!
In this particular instance, what's the school done wrong? That doesn't mean politicians and bureaucrats (ofsted) should dictate to a child what is right and wrong, if I had a child I would be responsible for that! The law is the law but moral standards are a vastly different thing!
joshcowin said:
amusingduck said:
Which minorities do you think the school should be teaching kids about, but aren't?
How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
This is my point I don't think they should, for the very reason where do you draw the line? How is teaching kids that gay people exist "dictating morals"?
We had afghan refugees at my school, we had traveller children, we had immigrants from several countries, we had families in poverty, we had children in foster care, we didn't need to be sat down in a class room in order to learn how to treat them, and we certainly didn't need telling they existed!
Where to draw the line? Start with "this is how to treat people" - that applies to everyone, including your afghan refugees, so no need for special training there. On top of this, introduce concepts so that they can understand some of the main differences in humans, biology, sexuality, religion, disability, etc. Job jobbed?
joshcowin said:
Yes academically! Any and every country would want well qualified/educated citizens.
That doesn't mean politicians and bureaucrats (ofsted) should dictate to a child what is right and wrong, if I had a child I would be responsible for that! The law is the law but moral standards are a vastly different thing!
What are they being dictated? That doesn't mean politicians and bureaucrats (ofsted) should dictate to a child what is right and wrong, if I had a child I would be responsible for that! The law is the law but moral standards are a vastly different thing!
Buggles said:
joshcowin said:
This is my point I don't think they should, for the very reason where do you draw the line?
We had afghan refugees at my school, we had traveller children, we had immigrants from several countries, we had families in poverty, we had children in foster care, we didn't need to be sat down in a class room in order to learn how to treat them, and we certainly didn't need telling they existed!
For the very reason that your school was diverse chap, you didn't need teaching about it. Not all schools are that diverse. The school in question was reported to be 98% Muslim and it's clear from the reaction of the parents, that this communities' children DO need educating about diversity and inclusion, because they're sure as sWe had afghan refugees at my school, we had traveller children, we had immigrants from several countries, we had families in poverty, we had children in foster care, we didn't need to be sat down in a class room in order to learn how to treat them, and we certainly didn't need telling they existed!
t not going to get it from home. On the flip side is it right to teach the kids in question about LGBTQ if it is against the parents wish? Say you lived in an English community in Saudi Arabia would you withdraw your child from lessons in which it was taught Homosexuality is illegal?
gregs656 said:
What are they being dictated?
Morality. I am talking in broad terms here, not specifically about peoples equality, I would hope that is a no brainier!I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).
joshcowin said:
Morality. I am talking in broad terms here, not specifically about peoples equality, I would hope that is a no brainier!
I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).
Isn't that the point though, you have parents here saying that their children shouldn't be taught something inline with the law of the land.I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).
So, clearly, it isn't a no brainer.
You don't think, for example, that a school should educate children that stealing is wrong, or they shouldn't hit other pupils? How can any institution (education or otherwise) function without defining and enforcing rules that are moral in nature? It is just how society works.
joshcowin said:
Morality. I am talking in broad terms here, not specifically about peoples equality, I would hope that is a no brainier!
I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).
Do you think LGBT people are moral or immoral?I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).
Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people?
Buggles said:
On your first question, yes. Parents don't always know what's best for their children. Especially where religion is involved. These parents have been quite clear about what they think of homosexuality with regards to their religion.
Re your second question, I wouldn't take my children to Saudi because I don't agree with their laws. On a wider note, I don't object to my children being taught the law of the land, but I would object if they were taught that a different section of society were inferior or wrong.
I am just playing devils advocate here, I have no involvement in this, I certainly am not condoning anyone's behaviour/beliefs. Re your second question, I wouldn't take my children to Saudi because I don't agree with their laws. On a wider note, I don't object to my children being taught the law of the land, but I would object if they were taught that a different section of society were inferior or wrong.
You mean you have a different view to them? Why are you right and they wrong? Why must they accept your viewpoint/beliefs yet you can just ignore or claim theirs are wrong?
Yet again I agree with you however not all parents know what is best for their children!
The Afghani muslims in my school would rather have stayed in Afghanistan, not really a choice for them unfortunately, hence they had to come to another country with polar opposite views, they probably don't agree with our laws! However we have such a great equality culture here that we can accommodate them, oh no we say their religion is wrong and their morals and they should change their outlook on life, just doesn't make sense to me!
And again your last sentence I could not agree more with!
joshcowin said:
Why this minority and not the hundreds of others!? Why have LGBTQ been given preference?
I would send my child to school for academic reasons, I would not want/expect their morals or standards to be dictated to by the state!
Thank goodness I am not having children!!
Which other minorities have been subject to so much hatred over the last decades to warrant it? I would send my child to school for academic reasons, I would not want/expect their morals or standards to be dictated to by the state!
Thank goodness I am not having children!!
The nail that sticks out gets the hammer, so to speak.
I'm so glad that our society is growing to accept it (we're definitely not there yet) and it would be completely disingenuous for anyone to claim it was a natural shift - generations were dragged kicking and screaming to the party.
Rivenink said:
Do you think LGBT people are moral or immoral?
Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people?
LGBT - 3.6 million people, I have no clue if all 3.6 are moral or immoral! Are you a qualified spokesperson for the 3.6 million gay people in this country? Are you happy to say if all of them are one thing or another? Are all 3.6 million gay people happy with how children are being taught in schools?Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people?
I think we are all equal, hence why I have a problem separating out, incredibly small, specific sections of the population!!
You seem to have mistaken me for a radical person, whereas I am someone who would like to talk about equality in a sensible fashion.
My views are irrelevant, your views are irrelevant, what is relevant is what the state are telling children what is right and wrong, it has nothing to do with them.
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