Islamaphobia in Tory party?
Discussion
edh said:
Peter Oborne's not impressed
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/britain-need...
"Something has gone hideously wrong with the modern Conservative Party and Theresa May is incapable of dealing with it"
I agree entirely with his conclusion, but for very different reasons https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/britain-need...
"Something has gone hideously wrong with the modern Conservative Party and Theresa May is incapable of dealing with it"
and good old Rod Liddle he wont subscribe to pious nonsense
Liddle said:
My own view is that there is not nearly enough Islamophobia within the Tory party. Phobia implies these misgivings are irrational, when they are anything but.
Edited by JagLover on Wednesday 6th March 14:25
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.Edit, no offence intended but this is a multifaith problem.
biggbn said:
I know people who do not approve of homosexuality yet employ homosexuals...are these people in the minority?
I hope to god not. I really hope very few people refuse employment to people based on their sexuality. And I hope those that do refuse are nailed by the law.FFS it's not the 19th century.
Do we need more posters on buses?
oyster said:
biggbn said:
I know people who do not approve of homosexuality yet employ homosexuals...are these people in the minority?
I hope to god not. I really hope very few people refuse employment to people based on their sexuality. And I hope those that do refuse are nailed by the law.FFS it's not the 19th century.
Do we need more posters on buses?
biggbn said:
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.Edit, no offence intended but this is a multifaith problem.
We shouldn't be permitting Christianity or anyone else to run, for example, expressly sexist or homophobic recruitment/promotion practices.
If we wouldn't tolerate, for example, the Scouts doing X, then we shouldn't tolerate anyone else doing it either.
Islam's ruling is pretty clear on homosexuality, and whilst I'd absolutely applaud anyone with the sense to disobey, the organisation won't do the same.
SpeckledJim said:
biggbn said:
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.Edit, no offence intended but this is a multifaith problem.
We shouldn't be permitting Christianity or anyone else to run, for example, expressly sexist or homophobic recruitment/promotion practices.
If we wouldn't tolerate, for example, the Scouts doing X, then we shouldn't tolerate anyone else doing it either.
Islam's ruling is pretty clear on homosexuality, and whilst I'd absolutely applaud anyone with the sense to disobey, the organisation won't do the same.
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.AJL308 said:
Something which annoys the s
t out of me these days is the application of "phobia" to the end of anything which people find objectionable or are trying to make a cause out of.
A phobia is an irrational fear of something not a hatred of, or an objection to, something.
It is both, and has been in common usage in such a way for a long time.t out of me these days is the application of "phobia" to the end of anything which people find objectionable or are trying to make a cause out of. A phobia is an irrational fear of something not a hatred of, or an objection to, something.
Alpinestars said:
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
SpeckledJim said:
Because the Imam and his boss (and his boss and his boss (all blokes, of course)) are the ones who get to say what Islam constitutes and doesn't constitute, and whilst I'd applaud anyone who rejects homophobia, I don't think they would.
Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
Islam doesn't have a hierarchy in the same way as your other examples though, does it? There are gay Imams.Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
The Surveyor said:
AJL308 said:
They won on appeal (rightly).
I wasn't aware of that. What were the grounds of the appeal and does that effectively render the Equalities Act toothless?The bakery gave evidence that they do not object to serving homosexuals, have done in the past and would continue to do so. I believe that they also employ gay people.
I think but cannot recall definitively that the Court also raised the point that they were not entirely convinced that the person bringing the claim came to the court with entirely "clean hands" in that the whole thing was perhaps very carefully executed, with that specific slogan, in order to illicit the reaction that it did.
gregs656 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Because the Imam and his boss (and his boss and his boss (all blokes, of course)) are the ones who get to say what Islam constitutes and doesn't constitute, and whilst I'd applaud anyone who rejects homophobia, I don't think they would.
Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
Islam doesn't have a hierarchy in the same way as your other examples though, does it? There are gay Imams.Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
Nur Warsame told The Independent inundated that he had been inundated with cries for help from gay Muslims who feel they have nowhere to turn.
"I have been dealing with young people who have been excommunicated from their families," he said. "That is when you have a problem.”
People had been “trying to beat the gay out of their loved ones," he added.
"Mr Warsame, who used to lead a mosque in Melbourne, came out as the country’s first openly gay Muslim leader in 2010. He said he was cut off by the Islamic community when he revealed his sexuality.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australas...
Think it's fairly clear what the lay of the land is.
The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
SpeckledJim said:
Think it's fairly clear what the lay of the land is.
The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
Fine, but that is a completely different claim to your previous one. I don't think it is up to you to dictate what gay people can have faith in.The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
My position on religion is have it, enjoy it, but please keep it away from me.
I am not sure what any of this has to do with islamaphobia, though.
gregs656 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Think it's fairly clear what the lay of the land is.
The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
Fine, but that is a completely different claim to your previous one. I don't think it is up to you to dictate what gay people can have faith in.The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
My position on religion is have it, enjoy it, but please keep it away from me.
I am not sure what any of this has to do with islamaphobia, though.
You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly b
ks.What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
SpeckledJim said:
gregs656 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Think it's fairly clear what the lay of the land is.
The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
Fine, but that is a completely different claim to your previous one. I don't think it is up to you to dictate what gay people can have faith in.The question is whether we should embrace people's wish to behave like this toward their fellow man, or whether we should be very clear that it's absolutely not on, and perhaps lob a few prosecutions around.
My position on religion is have it, enjoy it, but please keep it away from me.
I am not sure what any of this has to do with islamaphobia, though.
You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly b
ks.What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
k for that 
Some phrases don't translate properly into other languages. I'd say the same is pretty much true of logic & religion.
SpeckledJim said:
I don't think it's a different claim at all.
You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly bks.
What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
The underlying assumption there is that the interpretation of the religious text is static, which it is not. It is not difficult to read the Qu'ran and not see homophobia, if you want to read it in, you can do that, but no where does it say that being a homosexual is wrong in explicit terms. I have said this recently on another thread but Religions general obsession with homosexuality is a curious thing when you consider how little is written about it.You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly b
ks.What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
I don't believe that any religion (or religious person) is exempt from the laws of the land? They do not have the right you speak of.
gregs656 said:
SpeckledJim said:
I don't think it's a different claim at all.
You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly bks.
What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
The underlying assumption there is that the interpretation of the religious text is static, which it is not. It is not difficult to read the Qu'ran and not see homophobia, if you want to read it in, you can do that, but no where does it say that being a homosexual is wrong in explicit terms. I have said this recently on another thread but Religions general obsession with homosexuality is a curious thing when you consider how little is written about it.You can't say "I'm a good [insert religion here]" if you reject some of the nasty and arguably illegal parts of the religion. Even though you'd be a better person for it.
A 'good Catholic', for example, doesn't admit that the bit about the wine and wafer turning into the body of Christ when he eats them is clearly b
ks.What it has to do with Islamophobia is back near the top of the thread. Islam (and any/all other religions) shouldn't claim the right not to be discriminated against whilst simultaneously jealously protecting their 'right' to be discriminatory towards other people.
We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.
I don't believe that any religion (or religious person) is exempt from the laws of the land? They do not have the right you speak of.
In practice, it seems they really do. Look at the testimony of the gay Imam.
A little google indicates there are just four openly gay imams in the world. 1,500,000,000 Muslims. Four gay imams.
Fair play to those brave lads.
I think if you were one of the people responsible for the above ludicrous situation you'd need an awful lot of face to complain about being on the receiving end of discrimination.
SpeckledJim said:
Alpinestars said:
SpeckledJim said:
s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.
I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.Islam (or Christianity, or Scientology, or...) isn't just whatever any given someone says they are. They are a set of rules, defined by a controlling hierarchy. If you subscribe fully and obey, then that's one thing. If you sensibly cherry-pick the non-disgusting parts, then that's another.
Alpinestars said:
It’s not an “organised” religion with a single leader. It’s hugely fragmented, and each individual makes their own choices. You should judge the religion based on the individual followers, not what you think they might follow. The leaders you describe have no authority to lead, unlike in some other religions. I get that people may look to them for guidance, but you should accept that people make their own choices as well.
Surely the case for all religions? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff