Islamaphobia in Tory party?
Discussion
JagLover said:
Yes it is a very nuanced argument.
If the living wage becomes £10,50 an hour there are clearly some disabled that will not be able to justify that cost for their employers. There needs to be a sensible debate about this not hysteria.
Indeed. Listening to the chorus of boos on the video from the hustings suggests a well drilled, if over eager rent-a-mob rather than a group of ordinary voters affronted by her callousness. To my cynical ears.If the living wage becomes £10,50 an hour there are clearly some disabled that will not be able to justify that cost for their employers. There needs to be a sensible debate about this not hysteria.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
jakesmith said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
rscott said:
Who put you in charge?
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
The other Parties problems are but a small waste paper bin fire compared to Labours House fire !All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
To lump them all together is just a form of deflection and you know it.
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
What an interesting opinion!
I remember it slightly differently & think it was prominent in the news for some time but sadly many posters of which you may or may not have been one, were busy saying it was fabricated, misunderstandings, exaggerated, a smear against Corbyn etc
Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 8th December 18:56
rscott said:
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
I would agree with that.Whether by design or not (probably not) Corbyn had a lot of good will to begin with. He was a breath of fresh air, for want of a better metaphor. A genuine old Labour lefty who avoided the trite Blairite clichés, and appeared to give the bad news with the good. Yes we can have better public services and reduce poverty, but we will have to pay for it through higher taxes. Even I, the most right wing person I know, was glad he won and stayed as leader. Not because I wanted Labour to be an unelectable joke but because I thought that kind of frank honesty was a healthy development in an image of image driven populist politics.
He still does this and very well. If you look on the election thread you will see that I have consistently said he is better than Boris in the TV debates. I know Labour voters like Jeremy Corbyn. Mostly friends of my parents or parents of my friends. Retired educationalists who mean well, and see the good in unpopular people. The kind of people who will patiently point out that there's a good reason we don't hang criminals and bomb the hell out of awkward foreign countries. An extraordinary proportion of them called Keith or Neil.
They're nice people. Much nicer than most of the Tories I know.
The trouble is they let festering sores grow out of control. They have kids in their 30s who are heroin addicts and single mothers, and holiday homes which are out of control money pits. Because they're too nice.
Corybn is quite conceivably simply too nice to tell Hamas that you can't drive the nation of Israel into the sea. Or to say that he will not attend the funeral of a terrorist, even though he sympathises with Palestinians. I am quite sure he would not tell an ordinary Israeli his nation should be driven into the sea, or declare to the Knesset that athletes representing the Jewish state in Munich deserved to die.
He's the definition of the useful idiot.
jakesmith said:
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
What an interesting opinion!
I remember it slightly differently & think it was prominent in the news for some time but sadly many posters of which you may or may not have been one, were busy saying it was fabricated, misunderstandings, exaggerated, a smear against Corbyn etc
Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 8th December 18:56
Personally, I'd want all parties to address their issues like this, no matter how big or small.
Whilst you may be right I think the point rscott was making is that there was probably a time when Corbyn and his supporters were being told of incidents in the Labour party and they would have said "But it's just one or two rogue councillors" or whatever it was.
You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
True, but if Labour proves anything it's that you can't tackle such an epidemic by obsessively jumping on every potential hint of racism. Labour have been doing this for nearly 30 years, seeing institutional racsim everywhere they look, and the net result is they have been infiltrated by genuine racists.
How about an actual grown up discussion about race where the benchmark is not who scores the most points for outing racists but who has the most coherent and workable plan for creating a society which is cohesive and sufficiently homogenous to work together for the common good?
As an old grump I think the ideals if blind justice and equality of opportunity offer a far better path to that than convoluted notions of social justice and equality of outcome ever can. I think we have gone backwards not forwards in this since 1997. And that quite honestly a few dumb posts on Facebook count for absolutely nothing unless they can be shown to be part of a wider pattern of bigotry and intolerance.
How about an actual grown up discussion about race where the benchmark is not who scores the most points for outing racists but who has the most coherent and workable plan for creating a society which is cohesive and sufficiently homogenous to work together for the common good?
As an old grump I think the ideals if blind justice and equality of opportunity offer a far better path to that than convoluted notions of social justice and equality of outcome ever can. I think we have gone backwards not forwards in this since 1997. And that quite honestly a few dumb posts on Facebook count for absolutely nothing unless they can be shown to be part of a wider pattern of bigotry and intolerance.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whilst you may be right I think the point rscott was making is that there was probably a time when Corbyn and his supporters were being told of incidents in the Labour party and they would have said "But it's just one or two rogue councillors" or whatever it was.
You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
Exactly right.You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
What an interesting opinion!
I remember it slightly differently & think it was prominent in the news for some time but sadly many posters of which you may or may not have been one, were busy saying it was fabricated, misunderstandings, exaggerated, a smear against Corbyn etc
Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 8th December 18:56
Personally, I'd want all parties to address their issues like this, no matter how big or small.
Your entire post is highly dubious & clear as day what your motives are
I'm sure you're deeply concerned about antisemitism in Labour, bet it really keeps you awake at night.
rscott said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whilst you may be right I think the point rscott was making is that there was probably a time when Corbyn and his supporters were being told of incidents in the Labour party and they would have said "But it's just one or two rogue councillors" or whatever it was.
You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
Exactly right.You don't just wake up one day to an epidemic, it breeds over time because people turn a blind eye and explain it away with excuses such as "Well we're not as bad as the other lot yet".
Corbyn and his supporters were being told of incidents in the Labour party and they would have said "Why is it just one or two councillors"
jakesmith said:
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
rscott said:
jakesmith said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The correct answer Jake is no it wouldn't be an acceptable defence and it wouldn't make his actions any less abhorrent.
I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
It’s not a defence at all but it’s not a problem of the same magnitude either and shouldn’t be given equal weighting in the media, nor allowed to be used as a distraction from a far more serious issue. This is now going in circles I suggest you accept I am correct and we draw a line under it. Thank you. I didn't think that was a particularly difficult one.
All the parties have problems with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to varying degrees and attention needs to be directed on all of them to ensure they address it.
Labour's problems didn't occur overnight - had the media paid attention to them when they first began, they'd almost certainly have done something about it by now.
What an interesting opinion!
I remember it slightly differently & think it was prominent in the news for some time but sadly many posters of which you may or may not have been one, were busy saying it was fabricated, misunderstandings, exaggerated, a smear against Corbyn etc
Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 8th December 18:56
Personally, I'd want all parties to address their issues like this, no matter how big or small.
Your entire post is highly dubious & clear as day what your motives are
I'm sure you're deeply concerned about antisemitism in Labour, bet it really keeps you awake at night.
Given that I can't support any of the mainstream parties at the moment (not over this, but because all the leaders are lying, incompetents) , I'd like them all to sort it out properly.
rscott said:
You're the one who wanted to shut down all discussion of non-Labour problems.. It's very obvious what you're trying to achieve.
Given that I can't support any of the mainstream parties at the moment (not over this, but because all the leaders are lying, incompetents) , I'd like them all to sort it out properly.
Well your first bit is a total fantasy but it's probably an honest mistake as, let's be honest you'd be something of a savant if you could remember every posters' position on every topic going back a year or so. I seem to remember you attempting to shout down any criticism of Corbyn and his racism over the years, but hey, we're all human and I'm certainly not going to start going back to check historic posts for the sake of a respectful discussion with a stranger on the internet at 11pm on a Sunday night so I'm afraid you'll have to agree with me on that one.Given that I can't support any of the mainstream parties at the moment (not over this, but because all the leaders are lying, incompetents) , I'd like them all to sort it out properly.
Your second bit about not voting for a mainstream party, well I would like to believe and would happily give you the benefit of the doubt as I am sure you must agree with me that as you truly are a man of principle and integrity, comrade corbyn's racist incompetent kabal (albeit based on inclusive kinder politics), is not worthy of the vote of a fine man such as yourself.
So that's two points we agree on and that's what is great about the internet.
jakesmith said:
rscott said:
You're the one who wanted to shut down all discussion of non-Labour problems.. It's very obvious what you're trying to achieve.
Given that I can't support any of the mainstream parties at the moment (not over this, but because all the leaders are lying, incompetents) , I'd like them all to sort it out properly.
Well your first bit is a total fantasy but it's probably an honest mistake as, let's be honest you'd be something of a savant if you could remember every posters' position on every topic going back a year or so. I seem to remember you attempting to shout down any criticism of Corbyn and his racism over the years, but hey, we're all human and I'm certainly not going to start going back to check historic posts for the sake of a respectful discussion with a stranger on the internet at 11pm on a Sunday night so I'm afraid you'll have to agree with me on that one.Given that I can't support any of the mainstream parties at the moment (not over this, but because all the leaders are lying, incompetents) , I'd like them all to sort it out properly.
Your second bit about not voting for a mainstream party, well I would like to believe and would happily give you the benefit of the doubt as I am sure you must agree with me that as you truly are a man of principle and integrity, comrade corbyn's racist incompetent kabal (albeit based on inclusive kinder politics), is not worthy of the vote of a fine man such as yourself.
So that's two points we agree on and that's what is great about the internet.
Your mind appears to be failing you - I've never defended Corbyn re racism.
I couldn't vote Labour, given the dire quality of pretty much every member of the shadow cabinet and the spectre of Momentum taking over. Which is a shame as the local candidate is pretty decent.
The Tory candidate (and likely to retain his seat) is also not someone I could support, for many reasons. He's been in his seat for 9 years and has delivered nothing whatsoever for this area. I also don't trust Boris and many of his party.
Lib Dems - decent candidate, real world experience in both business and charities. Poor leader.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:jakesmith said:
Oh give the theatricals a rest. Staggering etc. There is very little evidence of an issue with the Tories. Not a staggering amount I’d say anyway.
Nobody has said it's a staggering amount.Just some issues.
That's what makes all the "but Corbyn" stuff all the more bizarre.
If that bloke doing the monkey chants in the game yesterday said "but United fans are worse" would that be an acceptable defence or make his actions any less abhorrent?
Of course not.
Regarding Islamophobia - how is it defined? By simply questioning 'iffy' aspects of it?
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