Islamaphobia in Tory party?

[biggbn]

desolate said:

Not the case with Catholicism.
And many other Christian religions.

Can you explain why? Surely the Bible is open to individual interpretation? There is a huge range of interpretations available and practiced within those two faiths you mention?

[s1962a]

SpeckledJim said:

s1962a said:

SpeckledJim said:

A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.

I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.

Would your imam agree, and if he would, would his boss agree?

Not sure what you mean by 'my imam'? So if I don't have a designated imam, does that make me even less of a muslim in your view.

Genuine question, how many muslims do you know, and how many of them have expressed their opinion on homosexuality to you.

[s2art]

SpeckledJim said:

We should be tolerant of everything except intolerance. We should be strongly intolerant of intolerance.

Perhaps a bit too simplistic. A lot of our laws are about not tolerating something or other. Sometimes we have to draw lines for the greater good of society.

[SpeckledJim]

s1962a said:

SpeckledJim said:

s1962a said:

SpeckledJim said:

A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.

I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.

Would your imam agree, and if he would, would his boss agree?

Not sure what you mean by 'my imam'? So if I don't have a designated imam, does that make me even less of a muslim in your view.

Genuine question, how many muslims do you know, and how many of them have expressed their opinion on homosexuality to you.

We won't prove or disprove much with one man's anecdotes from rural Cheshire.

You didn't answer my question, which is entirely your prerogative, but a shame since your anecdotes are going to be more enlightening than mine.

But is it your contention that Islam doesn't have a problem with homophobia?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

[gregs656]

biggbn said:

Can you explain why? Surely the Bible is open to individual interpretation? There is a huge range of interpretations available and practiced within those two faiths you mention?

Because of the organisational structures. The Catholic faith is defined by the leadership of it, there is only 1 branch of it, although I accept that some Catholics may be in conflict with the official line of their church that is not the same thing as having no official line in the first instance.

[biggbn]

gregs656 said:

biggbn said:

Can you explain why? Surely the Bible is open to individual interpretation? There is a huge range of interpretations available and practiced within those two faiths you mention?

Because of the organisational structures. The Catholic faith is defined by the leadership of it, there is only 1 branch of it, although I accept that some Catholics may be in conflict with the official line of their church that is not the same thing as having no official line in the first instance.

Edit....Sorry, incorrectly written...the Pope has spoken out about birth control yet many Catholics use it. As with abortion. I am sorry but i do take your point but feel ALL religions may have basic tenets but ALL are open to malleability and individual interpretation, as I believe they should be to remain relevant in an ever changing world.

Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 6th March 16:42

[gregs656]

biggbn said:

Yet the Pope has spoken out in favour of birth control? I am sorry but i do take your point but feel ALL religions may have basic tenets but ALL are open to malleability and individual interpretation, as I believe they should be to remain relevant in an ever changing world.

Your example is in support of my point, not against it.

Catholic Dogma is not up for grabs, of course, but Catholic Doctrine can be changed by the Pope. There is no such equivalence in Islam, no one person in Islam can change the Doctrine in this way.

I see your edit and it doesn't really matter; if individual Catholics choose to run against Catholic Doctrine that is their choice - but it doesn't change the Doctrine. Indeed, Catholics are in the business of people sinning and being forgiven, particularly if they are ready to pay for their forgiveness.

That doesn't change the overall point about how the rules are dictated, which was your query.

[biggbn]

It seems the pope may be in favour of change?

https://onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-really-stand...


It's a really difficult thing to debate with any surety as we seem always to return to interpretation of ancient texts

[biggbn]

gregs656 said:

biggbn said:

Yet the Pope has spoken out in favour of birth control? I am sorry but i do take your point but feel ALL religions may have basic tenets but ALL are open to malleability and individual interpretation, as I believe they should be to remain relevant in an ever changing world.

Your example is in support of my point, not against it.

Catholic Dogma is not up for grabs, of course, but Catholic Doctrine can be changed by the Pope. There is no such equivalence in Islam, no one person in Islam can change the Doctrine in this way.

I see your edit and it doesn't really matter; if individual Catholics choose to run against Catholic Doctrine that is their choice - but it doesn't change the Doctrine. Indeed, Catholics are in the business of people sinning and being forgiven, particularly if they are ready to pay for their forgiveness.

That doesn't change the overall point about how the rules are dictated, which was your query.

Thanks I see your point although no not see how this affects the individual. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[s1962a]

SpeckledJim said:

s1962a said:

SpeckledJim said:

s1962a said:

SpeckledJim said:

A Muslim who denies the immorality of homosexuals isn't being a proper Muslim.

I'm muslim and I have no problem with homosexuality, so thats a load of rubbish.

Would your imam agree, and if he would, would his boss agree?

Not sure what you mean by 'my imam'? So if I don't have a designated imam, does that make me even less of a muslim in your view.

Genuine question, how many muslims do you know, and how many of them have expressed their opinion on homosexuality to you.

We won't prove or disprove much with one man's anecdotes from rural Cheshire.

You didn't answer my question, which is entirely your prerogative, but a shame since your anecdotes are going to be more enlightening than mine.

But is it your contention that Islam doesn't have a problem with homophobia?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

You seem to be so sure on what makes a person 'not a proper muslim' that I thought you might have personal anecdotes.

I can answer your question directly. Islam does not allow same sex relationships - just like any major religion. I pick and choose which parts of Islam I believe in and which I dont.. like most religious people do. I also have 'flexible' beliefs on alcohol, sex before marriage, interest (the kind you pay on a loan), music, and lots of other things Islam has a view on. Who gets to decide if that makes me less of a muslim?

Could you answer then? how many muslims do you know and how many of them have expressed their view of homosexuality to you?

[Countdown]

JagLover said:

and good old Rod Liddle he wont subscribe to pious nonsense

Liddle said:

My own view is that there is not nearly enough Islamophobia within the Tory party. Phobia implies these misgivings are irrational, when they are anything but.

Either Rod Liddle doesn't understand English or he's a wuckfit.

Actually it;s quite possible that he could be both. They're not mutually exclusive.

[Fat Wolfie]

I met Baroness Warsi in 2015.

I’ve never met a more repellent character in my life.

She’s the sort who would pick a fight with herself if there wasn’t anyone else.

She may or may not be right, but frankly forme she has no credibility.

You could argue she’s well balanced, as she has a chip on both shoulders.

[JagLover]

Countdown said:

Either Rod Liddle doesn't understand English or he's a wuckfit.

Actually it;s quite possible that he could be both. They're not mutually exclusive.

Is it irrational to have misgivings about Islam as a religion and an ideology?.

[biggbn]

JagLover said:

Countdown said:

Either Rod Liddle doesn't understand English or he's a wuckfit.

Actually it;s quite possible that he could be both. They're not mutually exclusive.

Is it irrational to have misgivings about Islam as a religion and an ideology?.

I don't think it is irrational to have misgivings about any individual who slavishly follows a single interpretation of any religion or ideology...

[anonymous-user]

biggbn said:

I don't think it is irrational to have misgivings about any individual who slavishly follows a single interpretation of any religion or ideology...

Agree.
Same with those who are so aggressively against those who believe in a god.
"You don't count as a Muslim as you think it's ok to be gay, or to drink"
fk off.

[biggbn]

desolate said:

biggbn said:

I don't think it is irrational to have misgivings about any individual who slavishly follows a single interpretation of any religion or ideology...

Agree.
Same with those who are so aggressively against those who believe in a god.
"You don't count as a Muslim as you think it's ok to be gay, or to drink"
fk off.

Live and let live man, 100%

[jakesmith]

edh said:

I suspect most people don't think it's news that there are racists in the Tory party given the track record of the former home secretary, now PM.

That is an outrageous slur and completely out of order, you should retract that statement and apologise immediately

[Alpinestars]

biggbn said:

Alpinestars said:

It’s not an “organised” religion with a single leader. It’s hugely fragmented, and each individual makes their own choices. You should judge the religion based on the individual followers, not what you think they might follow. The leaders you describe have no authority to lead, unlike in some other religions. I get that people may look to them for guidance, but you should accept that people make their own choices as well.

Surely the case for all religions?

Judging individuals’ views is the case with or without religion.

[Alpinestars]

SpeckledJim said:

We won't prove or disprove much with one man's anecdotes from rural Cheshire.

You didn't answer my question, which is entirely your prerogative, but a shame since your anecdotes are going to be more enlightening than mine.

But is it your contention that Islam doesn't have a problem with homophobia?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

What’s relevant is whether Muslims (people) have an issue with it.

[bitchstewie]

Not sure why people are surprised given it's pretty much everywhere else.