Islamaphobia in Tory party?
Discussion
plasticpig said:
In the 2017:general election Muslims were the most homogenous block of voters when voting is analysed by religious beleif.
I can't find any data for 2019 and it would be interesting to see if this holds true this time round.
Which was before the Tories appointed as their leader someone accused of making heinous racial slurs, such as describing women in Burka's as looking like letterboxes . I can't find any data for 2019 and it would be interesting to see if this holds true this time round.
The same does not hold true of other immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and the Conservatives are competitive amongst both Sikhs and Hindus.
JagLover said:
Which was before the Tories appointed as their leader someone accused of making heinous racial slurs, such as describing women in Burka's as looking like letterboxes .
The same does not hold true of other immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and the Conservatives are competitive amongst both Sikhs and Hindus.
Muslim POV is its not just the burkha comment that put most off Boris it was calling african people "Picaninnies", allowing an article to be published alluding that black people have a lower IQ whilst he was an editor and the many hate filled ignorant statments he has made..The same does not hold true of other immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and the Conservatives are competitive amongst both Sikhs and Hindus.
You will find the reason Indians (The Indian Hindus/Sikhs anyway) have voted against labour mostly was because of Corbyn speaking out about the Kashmir issue and what Modhi is doing in India against Muslim refugees, Just as a sense of blind nationalism...
triggerh4ppy said:
You will find the reason Indians (The Indian Hindus/Sikhs anyway) have voted against labour mostly was because of Corbyn speaking out about the Kashmir issue and what Modhi is doing in India against Muslim refugees, Just as a sense of blind nationalism...
The Conservatives were competitive with both communities long before any recent short term issues. http://theconversation.com/how-the-conservatives-s...
Edited by JagLover on Monday 23 December 10:45
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I suspect that reflects your own outlook. In a good way.
If you go looking for division and hatred you will find it. Similarly if you look for a multicultural paradise where everyone gets along fine, you can delude yourself that we have it.
If you put your faith in the public domain then you can't expect it not to be criticised and ridiculed, and if you criticise and ridicule people's faith you can't expect them to like it.
What I wish we could get away from is this idea that being Muslim, or black, white, gay, Christian etc is an all encompassing identity and the only (or primary) lens through which to view the world. The spurious idea that Boris said that about veils, therefore he is "anti Muslim." This seems designed to hive off "Muslims" as a political block which makes little more sense than hiving off people with size 9 feet as a political block.
Either we are a functionally secular, liberal country where we act, think and treat each other as individuals or we are an uneasy peace of warring tribes ready to rip into each other for any perceived slight against our tribe. It should be a fairly easy choice.
The people who seem to group everyone into their own generalized groups the most are the groups themselves. If you go looking for division and hatred you will find it. Similarly if you look for a multicultural paradise where everyone gets along fine, you can delude yourself that we have it.
If you put your faith in the public domain then you can't expect it not to be criticised and ridiculed, and if you criticise and ridicule people's faith you can't expect them to like it.
What I wish we could get away from is this idea that being Muslim, or black, white, gay, Christian etc is an all encompassing identity and the only (or primary) lens through which to view the world. The spurious idea that Boris said that about veils, therefore he is "anti Muslim." This seems designed to hive off "Muslims" as a political block which makes little more sense than hiving off people with size 9 feet as a political block.
Either we are a functionally secular, liberal country where we act, think and treat each other as individuals or we are an uneasy peace of warring tribes ready to rip into each other for any perceived slight against our tribe. It should be a fairly easy choice.
Black people will constantly refer to the black community, the Muslims do the same and so on. They put themselves into their own tribal groups.
But then cry when others treat them as such and hold them responsible for the actions that come from their particular groups. They can't have it both ways.
As for your last paragraph sadly I personally think it's the latter and aways will be it's just in our natural. I know some seem to think that humanity as gone past our basic instictive drives, we are are now beings of freewill and logic, I say bulls
t to this we are not we are instictive irrational animals driven by emotion. We are tribal, we are very capable of assimilating small numbers of other groups. In fact it's necessary for biological and genetic diversity. What you don't see involving tribal groups is mass integration like the experiment we are trying now in the west. Well not without a lot of mess. The only reason we haven't seen such mess yet is because we have become fat a lazy, gluttonous on access to abundant resources. We have all the food we can eat everything we want.
It's like having a pack of wolves and chucking another pack into the same territory. If you give them all the food they can eat so they don't need to fight over it and make them lazy. Then perhaps there is a chance they won't rip each other to bits. But take that food away there will be carnage.
If we can't maintain our standard of living, if we start to go hungry then there will be carnage. History will repeat itself in its horrible way. If we already see tribal groups now god forbid what it would be like when people actually even if it's just a perception believe they need to complete over resources to survive.
Not the Messiah
Your first point: I think members of these groups and especially as you mention, blacks and Muslims, are often manipulated for political ends. The graph plastic pig posted above shows how effective this can be.
True about us being tribal by nature, but the tribes aren't set in stone. People probably won't identify as Jutes or Saxons when things go wrong.
People integrate, I just suspect that many of the things we currently do to foster integration end up hindering it.
Your first point: I think members of these groups and especially as you mention, blacks and Muslims, are often manipulated for political ends. The graph plastic pig posted above shows how effective this can be.
True about us being tribal by nature, but the tribes aren't set in stone. People probably won't identify as Jutes or Saxons when things go wrong.
People integrate, I just suspect that many of the things we currently do to foster integration end up hindering it.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Not the Messiah
Your first point: I think members of these groups and especially as you mention, blacks and Muslims, are often manipulated for political ends. The graph plastic pig posted above shows how effective this can be.
True about us being tribal by nature, but the tribes aren't set in stone. People probably won't identify as Jutes or Saxons when things go wrong.
People integrate, I just suspect that many of the things we currently do to foster integration end up hindering it.
Agree with what you say, but the people who seem to be doing the most manipulation of these groups are the ones who claim the virtues of multiculturalism the most. Your first point: I think members of these groups and especially as you mention, blacks and Muslims, are often manipulated for political ends. The graph plastic pig posted above shows how effective this can be.
True about us being tribal by nature, but the tribes aren't set in stone. People probably won't identify as Jutes or Saxons when things go wrong.
People integrate, I just suspect that many of the things we currently do to foster integration end up hindering it.
As for the tribal nature I've always said I hope I'm completely wrong. All I can only really draw on is my own experience I've always lived in a so called multicultural area my school was predominantly Muslim 70%+ the street I live on is very diverse. I could move but I don't feel the need to because I don't hate it but I can't honestly say looking around sometimes an think the cultural enrichment as been an improvement. The difference groups just live separate lives there is no real integration. And with certain groups there never will be as one of the main core identitys will always prevent it (religion) there will always be a them and us situation.
We had the economic crash and that wasn't that bad people didn't starve, families didn't need to queue up in soup lines. But you could argue because of that the we got Brexit and Trump. Now Image what would happen if things do go bad.
I think we know it it's why we now have this war of racism or anything close to it. Because we know we've created a potential inferno and we are now just running around shouting at people with matches.
5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...
plasticpig said:
5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...
bks from a Far Left Newspaper, who'da thunk !and what is wrong with a very anti position on "Radical Islam" ?
plasticpig said:
5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/research/the-hate-f...That's good from 1000 members...
Dont like rolls said:
bks from a Far Left Newspaper, who'da thunk !
and what is wrong with a very anti position on "Radical Islam" ?
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too manyks from a Far Left Newspaper, who'da thunk !and what is wrong with a very anti position on "Radical Islam" ?
Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
biggbn said:
Dont like rolls said:
bks from a Far Left Newspaper, who'da thunk !
and what is wrong with a very anti position on "Radical Islam" ?
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too manyks from a Far Left Newspaper, who'da thunk !and what is wrong with a very anti position on "Radical Islam" ?
Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
biggbn said:
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too many
Setting aside the hundreds of thousands who joined Labour for £3 to vote Corbyn in, 56,000 of whom were disqualified for voting in that leadership event, if far right racists have joined The Conservative Party in the hope of some sort of aligned ideology with Johnson following some stupid ill-judged offensive comments he made, they are going to be bitterly disappointed and it is a sign of just how thick they are. He has no ideology whatsoever. Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
jakesmith said:
biggbn said:
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too many
Setting aside the hundreds of thousands who joined Labour for £3 to vote Corbyn in, 56,000 of whom were disqualified for voting in that leadership event, if far right racists have joined The Conservative Party in the hope of some sort of aligned ideology with Johnson following some stupid ill-judged offensive comments he made, they are going to be bitterly disappointed and it is a sign of just how thick they are. He has no ideology whatsoever. Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
Why do you feel the need to indulge in whataboutery every time comment is made in this thread? Genuinely interested
biggbn said:
jakesmith said:
biggbn said:
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too many
Setting aside the hundreds of thousands who joined Labour for £3 to vote Corbyn in, 56,000 of whom were disqualified for voting in that leadership event, if far right racists have joined The Conservative Party in the hope of some sort of aligned ideology with Johnson following some stupid ill-judged offensive comments he made, they are going to be bitterly disappointed and it is a sign of just how thick they are. He has no ideology whatsoever. Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
Why do you feel the need to indulge in whataboutery every time comment is made in this thread? Genuinely interested
Fact is that the Britain First leader said he was joining and recommending his members to join due to Johnson's 'letterbox' comments. Many on here, I believe yourself included a few pages ago, have said that he is many things, but not a racist on purely this basis. The Britain First leader has been told his membership will be likely revoked. Pointing this out, and pointing out what actual entryism and actual institutional racism looks like, is not whataboutery just because you want to use this thread to express your dislike and dissatisfaction with our Prime Minister Mr. Boris Johnson, or his party, The Conservatives.
Edited by jakesmith on Saturday 28th December 23:28
*Ahem*, no one find it odd that it was a comment from the 'leader', quoting 5000, which the Guardian, [that well known left-wing newspaper], repeats with no check, when even 'Hopenothate' have estimated membership to be only 1,000?
Could it be that it's just bullst perhaps...?
That's good from 1000 members...
Could it be that it's just bulls
t perhaps...?andy_s said:
plasticpig said:
5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/research/the-hate-f...That's good from 1000 members...
andy_s said:
*Ahem*, no one find it odd that it was a comment from the 'leader', quoting 5000, which the Guardian, [that well known left-wing newspaper], repeats with no check, when even 'Hopenothate' have estimated membership to be only 1,000?
Could it be that it's just bullst perhaps...?
That's good from 1000 members...
And why didn't The Guardian ask The Conservative Party for a comment on this non-story? Could it be because it is staffed by Labour Party activists masquerading as journalists by any chance. Joke newspaper that is about as credible and neutral as The Express. Owen Jones and Poly Tonybee are an utter disgrace. Could it be that it's just bulls
t perhaps...?andy_s said:
plasticpig said:
5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/research/the-hate-f...That's good from 1000 members...
jakesmith said:
And why didn't The Guardian ask The Conservative Party for a comment on this non-story? Could it be because it is staffed by Labour Party activists masquerading as journalists by any chance. Joke newspaper that is about as credible and neutral as The Express. Owen Jones and Poly Tonybee are an utter disgrace.
And of course pepper the article with 'and Tommy said he'd joined too' when they know fine well it was a doctored image he'd used and it was just a lie. Gutter-story.
andy_s said:
And of course pepper the article with 'and Tommy said he'd joined too' when they know fine well it was a doctored image he'd used and it was just a lie.
Gutter-story.
But predictably jumped upon without so much as a second of fact checking by the very same people complaining that despite half a decade of an undeniable deluge of omnipresent racism at every level of the Labour Party organisation, it was just a smear against Dear Jeremy.Gutter-story.
jakesmith said:
biggbn said:
jakesmith said:
biggbn said:
....but 5000 members of a neo fascist group with anti-islam ideologie have joined Tory party? Are you happy about that? Even 50 from that shower would be too many
Setting aside the hundreds of thousands who joined Labour for £3 to vote Corbyn in, 56,000 of whom were disqualified for voting in that leadership event, if far right racists have joined The Conservative Party in the hope of some sort of aligned ideology with Johnson following some stupid ill-judged offensive comments he made, they are going to be bitterly disappointed and it is a sign of just how thick they are. He has no ideology whatsoever. Edited by biggbn on Saturday 28th December 22:29
Why do you feel the need to indulge in whataboutery every time comment is made in this thread? Genuinely interested
Fact is that the Britain First leader said he was joining and recommending his members to join due to Johnson's 'letterbox' comments. Many on here, I believe yourself included a few pages ago, have said that he is many things, but not a racist on purely this basis. The Britain First leader has been told his membership will be likely revoked. Pointing this out, and pointing out what actual entryism and actual institutional racism looks like, is not whataboutery just because you want to use this thread to express your dislike and dissatisfaction with our Prime Minister Mr. Boris Johnson, or his party, The Conservatives.
Edited by jakesmith on Saturday 28th December 23:28
Second point, I have stated several times I do not think Boris is an islamaphobe, nor do I believe his burkha comments were islamaphobic. Calculated? Inflammatory? Ill advised? Yes, all of those things. But I have complemented him as a small c conservative, a liberal conservative and stated I would probably like his company. I do not think he is a good leader...no nuance, no subtlety there by me, that's my stall set out and it has been consistent. I have admitted an irrational (later rationalised) dislike of him as leader many times, as have you.
A third point. I have stated several times I could vote conservative under a different leader, I have spoken warmly about Ruth Davidson, Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke amongst others, admittedly conservatives from the more liberal side of the party, but people whose opinions and actions have resonance for me. I have also widely decried Corbyns lack of leadership skills. I'm not sure where you are going by constantly harping back to labour party problems. Again, there is a dedicated thread for Corbyn and antisemitism.
Lastly, I have referred to the Tory party as a great party, one with huge tradition, and my concern is that if the leadership does not deal swiftly and harshly with their islamaphobia problem in its infancy, a problem let's not forget many senior Tories are open and honest about, they run the risk of the same kind of epidemic that beset the Labour Party.
I think this answers your questions whilst refuting your points about using this thread to bad mouth Johnson or his party. This country needs strong leadership and the Tories need only look across the house to see the damage allegations of and infections with any kind of prejudice can do them long term. If former members of what is basically a xenophobic neo Nazi party are joining the Tories that is a dangerous sign that public, independent action is needed, not actions like awarding peerages to people like Zac Goldsmith. A minority of the public percieving the Tories as a white, Christian nationalist party can bring all sorts of loudmouthed loons out of the woodwork, and I would like at least one of our major parties to have a bit of international standing.
Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th December 02:03
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