Shamima Begum...
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
As has been said elsewhere, when a 15 year old white girl is groomed into an entirely new belief set, we call her a victim.
The offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
A productive life? Seriously? Who the fThe offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
k is going to employ her? What “community” other than the obvious is going to accept her? Take your blinkers off. You’ve just spouted an idealistic blanket statement that really doesn’t help change the minds of those opposed to her returning. Any f
king idiot knows how to play the media game. Show some remorse, get the public on your side. But she didn’t did she? She just said people should feel sorry for her.She isn’t silly. She’s a moron.
This one is f
ked for life I’m afraid and there is no going back for her. I’m glad we aren’t wasting any more resources on her because that’s all it would be. She wanted to live in the desert and now she will get her wish. Northernboy said:
1602Mark said:
You might be surprised at the things people can be persuaded to do in the name of belief. I work with clients that will do all manner of things, such as putting the safety of a small baby ahead of that of a man who's repeatedly punched, kicked and burnt her with cigarettes. Or excused repeated violent rapes by her partner (and his friends) because it was a demonstration of how much she meant to him. Outrageous cases of extreme violence that become normalised and every day to some, yet are incredulous to people not directly involved.
But then we don’t let the people off who did this, saying that they had a bad upbringing, or knew no better. I’m not sure why people are so keen to excuse this woman’s activities.
skwdenyer said:
As has been said elsewhere, when a 15 year old white girl is groomed into an entirely new belief set, we call her a victim.
The offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. The offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
princeperch said:
This is pretty much indicitve of the standard of debate and critical analysis that takes place on the said local Facebook previously mentioned.
https://www.facebook.com/1231276559/posts/10225271...
Northernboy said:
Could you have been groomed at sixteen, in the UK, living at home, to want to burn people to death in cages, and murder gay men by throwing them off buildings?
I don’t believe that that’s possible, in your case or hers. She wanted to take part in the slaughter, to pretend it’s not her fault is ridiculous.
If you’ve got nothing else going for you and someone somewhere offers a chance at becoming part of something much bigger, I’m sure some would. Plenty of people out there with no upward mobility, no particular goals, no self esteem or self respect that could easily be convinced to do terrible things with the right amount of work put on them by terrible people.I don’t believe that that’s possible, in your case or hers. She wanted to take part in the slaughter, to pretend it’s not her fault is ridiculous.
Nature versus nurture arguments will come into it but I highly doubt when she was a 5 year old she wanted to join ISIS and take part in the slaughter so how did she get there at 15? Her parents don’t want to join ISIS so how did she learn it was what she wanted?
If we don’t try and understand that and try and fix the conditions that were there for her to change into what she is, then we risk many more doing the same thing.
But ‘f
k her’ is easier so...Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 28th February 16:18
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 28th February 16:20
F1GTRUeno said:
Northernboy said:
Could you have been groomed at sixteen, in the UK, living at home, to want to burn people to death in cages, and murder gay men by throwing them off buildings?
I don’t believe that that’s possible, in your case or hers. She wanted to take part in the slaughter, to pretend it’s not her fault is ridiculous.
If you’ve got nothing else going for you and someone somewhere offers a chance at becoming part of something much bigger, I’m sure some would.I don’t believe that that’s possible, in your case or hers. She wanted to take part in the slaughter, to pretend it’s not her fault is ridiculous.
Nature versus nurture arguments will come into it but I highly doubt when she was a 5 year old she wanted to join ISIS and take part in the slaughter so how did she get there at 15? Her parents don’t want to join ISIS so how did she learn it was what she wanted?
Perhaps this is just the way that she is and is her particular belief system? I mean she's been detained in a camp for a couple of years now, appears to be utterly unrepentant and has expressed no thoughts to the effect that her actions were wrong or in anyway unacceptable and completely contrary to how the actual civilised world wants to exist. Everything she has said tends to demonstrate that the only thing she is remorseful about is that ISIL lost and her Caliphate didn't (and won't) come to pass. She can't even lie in order to improve her public image. I think that we can be pretty damn certain that if she was indeed groomed initially then two years or so in a s
t-hole refugee camp would be some fairly good "de-programming" and would have achieved that effect many, many months ago!Personally, from the brief bits of film we've seen of her and from what she's said in interviews, I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything. That is not a reason to let her back though. She is a criminal who left the country of her birth essentially to fight against it with the ultimate desire of destroying the whole establishment of the liberal western world. She is a traitor to the society which raised her, plain and simple! She should be left to rot - f
k her! PeteinSQ said:
speedyman said:
Ask Lord Haw Haw what harm he did. Germany calling, Germany calling. Hanged for treason, never fired a shot.
But she wasn't a propagandist? She went to live in the caliphate, not fight for it or broadcast on its behalf so I'm not sure that is the right comparison. Stupidly she wanted to live in the islamic fantasy world. Were there any british people that went to live in Nazi Germany during the war because they thought fascism was smashing but didn't actively take part in propaganda etc? The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating"
Biggy Stardust said:
Tom Logan said:
The camp is still in a war zone, if things flare up again, who knows what may happen.
Hopefully one day soon she'll no longer be a UK problem.
Good news- she's not our problem right now. Hopefully one day soon she'll no longer be a UK problem.
She wanted to go, even at 15 she was old enough to make up her own mind, no-one dragged her to the airport and shoved her on the plane.
She went to join the caliphate entirely of her own free will to join a gang of barbaric murderous psychopaths where she was sprogged several times by one of the 'boyos' there to provide fighters for the future greater glory of the caliphate.
Let her rot in a desert camp, it's exactly what she deserves.
As others have said, if you watch her interviews she shows zero remorse, she only regrets the fact her babies have died. She isn't even making an effort to try and get the uk populous onside. Why should she be a burden to UK society, she would need protection (if imprisoned or not), her children would require housing, she would require many social services in support of her. Life is cruel, unfortunately ISIS made that fact even more so for thousands of people, an entity she clearly is still in support of.
Oilchange said:
From Wiki:
The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating"
It's pointless stating facts, the 'grooming'' and ''mind control'' gang want her to be seen as a lamb, when clearly she is a wolf. She hasn't ever expressed remorse and stayed until the bitter end, yet not her fault, see.The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating"
Again next MALE terrorist thread, lets see if the same supporters are arguing the same, doubt it, it would make them look like idiots.
Oilchange said:
From Wiki:
The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating"
She was brainwashed into doing all that stuff though. Poor her. I feel really sorry for her.... etc etc etcThe Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating"
AJL308 said:
I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything.
Were she diagnosed as such, she would have a defence in law under diminished responsibility I think? I agree that her responses (or the little I have seen of them) aren't what one might deem as being 'normal' though.
biggbn said:
skwdenyer said:
As has been said elsewhere, when a 15 year old white girl is groomed into an entirely new belief set, we call her a victim.
The offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
Thank you for this thoughtful post. The offence SB committed was committed as a child. There's a reason many US status have sealed records for juveniles - offences committed when young should not be excused, but should not haunt one forever. It is something I fundamentally disagree with in this country, that we do not follow suit.
Since then, what has happened? Some here seem to be suggesting that, now older, SB should have somehow "got over it" and be now showing remorse; if not, she's evil. That's not how grooming or programming works.
SB may have been silly at 15. She's also clearly a victim of circumstance. For as long as the UK denies her the right to return, to be helped, she's not going to soften her views - after all, the UK is now avowedly her enemy. All for something she did as a child when, it is seemingly beyond doubt, under the influence of people who had no right to be messing with the head of a teenager. What she did once she arrived there was a consequence of what took her there in the first place. Is that so very hard to see?
Read up on cults across the world; survivors need to be rescued, deprogrammed, supported. At the point of rescue, many show affinity for their captors / abusers / groomers. If we judged them on the remorse (or lack of) they showed, we'd never move forward. This thread seems dominated by people entirely unable to comprehend that others' experience of the world may not be the same as theirs.
If the UK had spent 1/100 of the amount they have on trying to keep her out on bringing her back and helping her, she'd be able to have a productive life. If she didn't happen, by accident of birth, to have some potential claim to some other citizenship, there'd be no question but that we'd take her back. Honestly, if she were white I don't think we'd be where we are either.
The whole sorry case tells us a great deal about who we are as a society; I'm honestly pretty sad about the implications.
AJL308 said:
We keep hearing that she was "groomed" but was she, really? It seems to be an automatic assumption that in order to do what she did she must have been the victim of some sort of coercion, compulsion, intimidation, threat or some variation thereof. Is there any evidence for it though? I'm sorry but I don't see any. What is "grooming" anyway as being distinct from just what your naturally formed preferences are? Was I "groomed" into liking cars, guns and going out with women young enough to be my daughter or are those things I've just naturally come to like during my life?
Perhaps this is just the way that she is and is her particular belief system? I mean she's been detained in a camp for a couple of years now, appears to be utterly unrepentant and has expressed no thoughts to the effect that her actions were wrong or in anyway unacceptable and completely contrary to how the actual civilised world wants to exist. Everything she has said tends to demonstrate that the only thing she is remorseful about is that ISIL lost and her Caliphate didn't (and won't) come to pass. She can't even lie in order to improve her public image. I think that we can be pretty damn certain that if she was indeed groomed initially then two years or so in a st-hole refugee camp would be some fairly good "de-programming" and would have achieved that effect many, many months ago!
Personally, from the brief bits of film we've seen of her and from what she's said in interviews, I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything. That is not a reason to let her back though. She is a criminal who left the country of her birth essentially to fight against it with the ultimate desire of destroying the whole establishment of the liberal western world. She is a traitor to the society which raised her, plain and simple! She should be left to rot - fk her!
How naturally formed are your preferences?Perhaps this is just the way that she is and is her particular belief system? I mean she's been detained in a camp for a couple of years now, appears to be utterly unrepentant and has expressed no thoughts to the effect that her actions were wrong or in anyway unacceptable and completely contrary to how the actual civilised world wants to exist. Everything she has said tends to demonstrate that the only thing she is remorseful about is that ISIL lost and her Caliphate didn't (and won't) come to pass. She can't even lie in order to improve her public image. I think that we can be pretty damn certain that if she was indeed groomed initially then two years or so in a s
t-hole refugee camp would be some fairly good "de-programming" and would have achieved that effect many, many months ago!Personally, from the brief bits of film we've seen of her and from what she's said in interviews, I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything. That is not a reason to let her back though. She is a criminal who left the country of her birth essentially to fight against it with the ultimate desire of destroying the whole establishment of the liberal western world. She is a traitor to the society which raised her, plain and simple! She should be left to rot - f
k her! You’re a product of your upbringing, your experiences and your surroundings.
In essence, yes, you were groomed to a degree to like cars, guns and women young enough to be your daughter’s age. The idea that those things were pleasant and to be enjoyed will have been formed part by you through trial and error and part by the people around you telling you these things are good and you wanting to agree for acceptance. I don’t personally believe I was born with a predisposition to like cars but I know my parents did and they gave me cars growing up and part of my liking them was the need for acceptance from them until it became solidified that yes, I do just like cars now.
And you might think that two years in a camp might de-program her but you’re judging that according to your own standards, not hers. I’m aware that I can’t personally speak to her motivations and influences throughout her life but neither can anyone else but her so we have to understand her rather than just lazily paint her as an evil monster and say ‘f
k her!’. How much de-programming she needs is individual to her and her own situation, not a general idea. She should’ve been brought back, put on trial and would likely have been sent to prison but what is a prison sentence worth if not for potential rehabilitation? We decide some people are too far gone but for most we let them back out hoping they’ve learnt their lessons.We’re complicated beings, things don’t just happen to us and make us who we are without reasoning behind it.
When I mentioned that anyone can be radicalised at any time I think about my dad. He now ‘hates’ French, Scottish, Irish, German people and won’t buy their products due to Brexit and their temerity to offer a different opinion that he doesn’t like. He wants to nuke the Middle East and get rid of Muslims despite probably not knowing a single Muslim in person. Through the media, through his work colleagues, friends and family members, through his life experiences of growing up and living in an insular, very white, northern town, the values he now holds basically mean he’s been radicalised into a rabid anti-immigrant, anti-Europe ‘Patriot’. He certainly didn’t mind those same people before a few years ago, or at least, not to the degree he does now. He’s a living, breathing stereotype of a Brexiteer (and before anyone says it, it happens to anti-Brexit folk too, it happens to us all) with very few organic thoughts happening in his mind. How did that occur? He was groomed by populist politicians, biased media, echo chambers, etc to become almost unrecognisable. There’s a documentary on it happening to Trump supporters in the US and family members effectively losing their parents to the cult.
Shamima Begum might very well have psychological issues that make her a horrible person and she may have had them since birth but to get her from Bethnal Green to Syria, she had to have plenty of messaging in her life to help her decide that was what she wanted, it didn’t just happen.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 28th February 17:08
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 28th February 17:11
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Sunday 28th February 17:14
1602Mark said:
AJL308 said:
I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything.
Were she diagnosed as such, she would have a defence in law under diminished responsibility I think? I agree that her responses (or the little I have seen of them) aren't what one might deem as being 'normal' though.
Skwdenyer
I think that's a noble sentiment but an idealistic one.
Importantly she wasn't groomed into a totally different belief system but an extreme interpretation of the one she was brought up with. And although it is certainly not the only interpretation of Islam it is not such an obscure or absurd one that any Imam or knowledgeable Muslim can immediately dismiss it entirely. Whole countries are run on a basis that is closer to the ideals of ISIS than liberal western democracy.
We don't seem to have a great track record of identifying which people are likely to put this interpretation into action or when, or at deprogramming people who have flirted with these extreme beliefs.
What I think we need to do is tighten up the law around allying yourself with a terrorist group. As I understand it we are well covered for people who collaborate with hostile states but not so for this sort of case. Secondly we need to get much better at deradicalisation, and at knowing when someone is a potential threat with a far greater degree of accuracy.
If we had those things then I would say bring her back to face the music and either change her ways drastically and become a useful person or rot in jail here.
Since we have neither of those things then any way of excluding her is better than bringing her back to probably be charged with passport fraud as a minor and be put in 6 months spreading her stupid beliefs.
I think that's a noble sentiment but an idealistic one.
Importantly she wasn't groomed into a totally different belief system but an extreme interpretation of the one she was brought up with. And although it is certainly not the only interpretation of Islam it is not such an obscure or absurd one that any Imam or knowledgeable Muslim can immediately dismiss it entirely. Whole countries are run on a basis that is closer to the ideals of ISIS than liberal western democracy.
We don't seem to have a great track record of identifying which people are likely to put this interpretation into action or when, or at deprogramming people who have flirted with these extreme beliefs.
What I think we need to do is tighten up the law around allying yourself with a terrorist group. As I understand it we are well covered for people who collaborate with hostile states but not so for this sort of case. Secondly we need to get much better at deradicalisation, and at knowing when someone is a potential threat with a far greater degree of accuracy.
If we had those things then I would say bring her back to face the music and either change her ways drastically and become a useful person or rot in jail here.
Since we have neither of those things then any way of excluding her is better than bringing her back to probably be charged with passport fraud as a minor and be put in 6 months spreading her stupid beliefs.
AJL308 said:
1602Mark said:
AJL308 said:
I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything.
Were she diagnosed as such, she would have a defence in law under diminished responsibility I think? I agree that her responses (or the little I have seen of them) aren't what one might deem as being 'normal' though.
1602Mark said:
AJL308 said:
1602Mark said:
AJL308 said:
I think she probably has some deep seated personality disorder rather than having been coerced into anything.
Were she diagnosed as such, she would have a defence in law under diminished responsibility I think? I agree that her responses (or the little I have seen of them) aren't what one might deem as being 'normal' though.
Who da thunk it.
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