Shamima Begum...
Discussion
F1GTRUeno said:
They don’t actually, otherwise you let the terrorists win don’t you?
We are at least partly responsible for why she went to Syria to join ISIS to begin with. If we don’t front up to that responsibility and work on the reasons why then we’re doomed to create more terrorists from our shores.
My bold.....How do you come to that conclusion? She stole her sister's passport and went off to join ISIS of her own free will.We are at least partly responsible for why she went to Syria to join ISIS to begin with. If we don’t front up to that responsibility and work on the reasons why then we’re doomed to create more terrorists from our shores.
The rest of your post is just apologist nonsense, the responsibility for her situation is hers and hers alone.
Tom Logan said:
F1GTRUeno said:
They don’t actually, otherwise you let the terrorists win don’t you?
We are at least partly responsible for why she went to Syria to join ISIS to begin with. If we don’t front up to that responsibility and work on the reasons why then we’re doomed to create more terrorists from our shores.
My bold.....How do you come to that conclusion? She stole her sister's passport and went off to join ISIS of her own free will.We are at least partly responsible for why she went to Syria to join ISIS to begin with. If we don’t front up to that responsibility and work on the reasons why then we’re doomed to create more terrorists from our shores.
The rest of your post is just apologist nonsense, the responsibility for her situation is hers and hers alone.
Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough. It’s not all black and white. It never could be with a 15 year old teenager, no matter how s
t of a person she was/still is.F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British. The kind of things that recruiters for ISIS pray on. We failed to offer a decent enough life for all of these people that ran off to join ISIS. Call it high standards for these people or whatever you wish but something clearly failed/is failing in the UK for people to go off and fight for ISIS wouldn’t you agree?
Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough. It’s not all black and white. It never could be with a 15 year old teenager, no matter how st of a person she was/still is.
are you serious?? is it april 1st already?Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough. It’s not all black and white. It never could be with a 15 year old teenager, no matter how s
t of a person she was/still is.F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British. The kind of things that recruiters for ISIS pray on. We failed to offer a decent enough life for all of these people that ran off to join ISIS. Call it high standards for these people or whatever you wish but something clearly failed/is failing in the UK for people to go off and fight for ISIS wouldn’t you agree?
Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough. It’s not all black and white. It never could be with a 15 year old teenager, no matter how st of a person she was/still is.
The conditions are there such that 99.99% of people in that age group get through life without feeling the need to abscond with a desire to fight for Isis with all that entails.Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough. It’s not all black and white. It never could be with a 15 year old teenager, no matter how s
t of a person she was/still is.The responsibility is hers in the same proportion. And as a minor her parents need to be shouldering the majority of the rest.
Mrr T said:
It's also clear Bangladesh will not and cannot be forced to accept her.
That's a bugger- I hope she likes Syria.btw- Their law is their law & our actions were based on this. If they choose to renege on their legal responsibilities to one of their citizens then it's not our problem.
Tom Logan said:
gazza285 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British.
We obviously did, or else why would she want to return?
gazza285 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British.
We obviously did, or else why would she want to return?Doesn’t explain why she wanted to leave in the first place, which is the point that needs addressing so it doesn’t happen again/as often.
Like I said, the majority of responsibility is her’s alone but not 100% of it. Nowhere near.
Jazzy Jag said:
Tom Logan said:
gazza285 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British.
We obviously did, or else why would she want to return?t job with her. Human beings are complicated creatures but sometimes we’re simple too. We all need some love in our lives. I suspect a big part of leaving was to find someone that loved her and reinforced her beliefs, hence she was an ISIS bride. What if at 15 with hormones running wild she saw no hope of finding someone here and felt no attachment to her parents and thus radicalising became easier?
If you don’t want to understand how radicalising works then it’ll never stop will it?
Doesn’t make her any less abhorrent in the cold light of day but she’s not a comic book supervillain and even then, they have a backstory that usually explains why they are who/what they are.
Biggy Stardust said:
Mrr T said:
It's also clear Bangladesh will not and cannot be forced to accept her.
That's a bugger- I hope she likes Syria.btw- Their law is their law & our actions were based on this. If they choose to renege on their legal responsibilities to one of their citizens then it's not our problem.
Mrr T said:
The UK also has its laws and its important the government follows them.
I can help you on that one- the SC has ruled that the government acted lawfully. You're welcome.Mrr T said:
At some point she will be in a position to instruct lawyers in her appeal. When she is I rather suspect she will be successful and will then be returning to the UK with a handsome compensation package. All of which you and I will be paying. If your happy for the government to spend our money so the HS can get some headlines, we'll fine. I am less happy with that.
If it happens I'll concede your point. It hasn't happened.F1GTRUeno said:
We clearly didn’t create conditions that allowed people any sort of purpose, any belonging, any upward mobility, etc to make her want to be British. The kind of things that recruiters for ISIS pray on. We failed to offer a decent enough life for all of these people that ran off to join ISIS. Call it high standards for these people or whatever you wish but something clearly failed/is failing in the UK for people to go off and fight for ISIS wouldn’t you agree?
Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough.
First bold bit...Yes, obviously most of the responsibility is hers but you have to apportion some blame to the recruiters and some to the country she decided wasn’t good enough.
I disagree, strongly. For youngsters in the UK, this country is a haven of education and opportunity. We have education available to everyone, whether it be through the state school system or private, we have colleges, opportunities for academic study or vocational skills, apprenticeships, universities in every corner of the country. We have charities, we have sports, we have clubs and groups, we have extra curricular activities. We promote entrepreneurs and business, we encourage youngsters to find a career path through a variety of channels and we support youngsters to achieving in life. We have relatively little crime, we have a healthcare service that will care for anyone indiscriminately, we have a police service that protects and serves the public and that isn’t corrupt. We have all sorts of counselling and help lines available to those who need it.
So really, I cannot agree that we do not create conditions that offered Begum a future, opportunity or support in this country. Millions of youngsters manage and thrive in the UK.
Mrr T said:
The UK also has its laws and its important the government follows them. At some point she will be in a position to instruct lawyers in her appeal. When she is I rather suspect she will be successful and will then be returning to the UK with a handsome compensation package. All of which you and I will be paying. If your happy for the government to spend our money so the HS can get some headlines, we'll fine. I am less happy with that.
What makes you think she cannot give direct instructions to her solicitors right now? She has been seen on her phone in interviews. With the phone even going off. So she clearly has access to a mobile phone.
I swallowed the rubbish and believed she must be living in some sort of ISIS-controlled camp. The ITV footage of her in totally western clothes showed that isn't the case. So I did a bit more research.
https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/re...
They have among other things: a bakery, health center, shop(s), sports field, UN/NGO office (I presume this office also has phone and internet access), vocational training center, women's center! Hardly the hell hole it's being presented to be.
Here is another link with the people running the camp telling you how it is: https://rojavainformationcenter.com/2020/09/our-ai...
I have a theory that her lawyers have delayed things a bit because at 21 years old something special happens to Banedeshi citizenship if you have not claimed it. But her lawyers and the media are selling us a pack of lies. I wouldn't want to spend years in that camp - but it seems perfectly safe and you could clearly openly communicate with your lawyer.
Here is a quote from the person running the camp:
"We didn’t do anything more than this, banning black dresses. We allow them to receive money from abroad via Hawala, they have telephones. We haven’t put many restrictions on them."
Biggy Stardust said:
Mrr T said:
The UK also has its laws and its important the government follows them.
I can help you on that one- the SC has ruled that the government acted lawfully. You're welcome.Mrr T said:
At some point she will be in a position to instruct lawyers in her appeal. When she is I rather suspect she will be successful and will then be returning to the UK with a handsome compensation package. All of which you and I will be paying. If your happy for the government to spend our money so the HS can get some headlines, we'll fine. I am less happy with that.
If it happens I'll concede your point. It hasn't happened.Best of luck with your wait. I expect to be proved correct.
F1GTRUeno said:
You jest but what if she actually did? Clearly her parents did a st job with her. Human beings are complicated creatures but sometimes we’re simple too. We all need some love in our lives.
I suspect a big part of leaving was to find someone that loved her and reinforced her beliefs, hence she was an ISIS bride. What if at 15 with hormones running wild she saw no hope of finding someone here and felt no attachment to her parents and thus radicalising became easier?
If you don’t want to understand how radicalising works then it’ll never stop will it?
.
What a load of drivelt job with her. Human beings are complicated creatures but sometimes we’re simple too. We all need some love in our lives. I suspect a big part of leaving was to find someone that loved her and reinforced her beliefs, hence she was an ISIS bride. What if at 15 with hormones running wild she saw no hope of finding someone here and felt no attachment to her parents and thus radicalising became easier?
If you don’t want to understand how radicalising works then it’ll never stop will it?
.
I think we can easily afford to not bother risking her being back to " understand how radicalising works"
milkround said:
I have a theory that her lawyers have delayed things a bit because at 21 years old something special happens to Banedeshi citizenship if you have not claimed it. But her lawyers and the media are selling us a pack of lies.
You are incorrect. She does not have to claim her Bangladeshi citizenship, she has had it since she was born to Bangladeshi parents.The law you are thinking of is where someone loses their Bangladeshi citizenship at 21 if they have not renounced their citizenship in another country. Note that they have to give up their other citizenship not claim their Bangladeshi one. No-one born to Bangladeshi-born parents has to claim citizenship.
In any case the point is moot as there is an exemption under a Bangladeshi SRO from, IIRC, 1980 that allows any Bangladeshi to hold dual citizenship with Britain (and Britain alone) so she will not lose her Bangladeshi citizenship at 21 regardless (not that she has dual citizenship anyway).
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