Shamima Begum...

[MC Bodge]

Mrr T said:

Biggy Stardust said:

ZedLeg said:

That’s stupid.

People like to talk about doublespeak when they’re misinterpreting Orwell, she’s had her citizenship revoked so she was never a citizen is one of the clearest examples I’ve ever seen.

No- you made an unsupported claim, I pointed out the fallacy. I didn't say what you claim I did.

She had her UK citizenship revoked as she renounced it whilst joining a death cult- this could happen as she was legally also a BD citizen. Her problem, not ours. It's all good.

Apparently her god Allah will take care of her.

She had her citizenship revoked by the government on a technicality which has still to be tested in court. She did not legally renounce her citizenship.

I'm not sure that everybody on this thread is very interested in the actual details or the implications, just the headlines and their idea of vengeance.

[PRO 5T]

I listened to that bbc podcast about her, she sounds exactly how you expect a deeply unpleasant and rather foolish young girl to have turned out to be. She’s gone through some st in her short adult life but she’s plainly lying about exactly how involved she got with ISIS.

In any other situation she’d be the mouthy gobste on social media, or down the pub or wherever, living her st life while thinking she’s the most important thing on the estate.

But being unpleasant doesn’t or shouldn’t get you kicked out of the country. She seems to have been the poster girl for “f***k around and find out” at the very least, and probably more likely a political hot potato.

Maybe, just because there’s more unpleasant people waking around free in the U.K. shouldn’t be used as an excuse for her. I’m caught between the two thoughts on her.

I’m probably erring on the side of keeping her kicked out as I can’t be arsed on her fizzog being everywhere if she ever made it back in, that Wallace and Gromit gormless face being on every tv show that mentioned anything about anything while she thought of herself as some great debater.

[Biggy Stardust]

Mrr T said:

She had her citizenship revoked by the government on a technicality which has still to be tested in court. She did not legally renounce her citizenship.

She informally renounced it, the government ratified her decision. It's all good.

[Biggy Stardust]

MC Bodge said:

As I have pointed out, this case is not necessarily about what some people seem to think it is, and the rules/laws are really not that clear.

We do not need to be supporters of an individual, or to agree with their actions, to prefer that UK people are all subjected correctly and fairly to UK law.

The courts have said that the law is sufficiently clear & was applied. Why do you not understand this?

MC Bodge said:

Declaring somebody no longer a UK citizen should not be at the whim of a Home Secretary either -look at the low calibre of some recent home secretaries.

So now it's diversion onto political personalities? Cheap shot & not relevant.

MC Bodge said:

Ps. For the benefit of Biggy Stardust, "Allah" is the same god as the Christian and Jewish one.

Yet that Allah said that all the others are false & should have their followers killed? I have a copy of his book & I'm pretty sure that's what it says. Are you sayiing that this god wants to kill his own followers just because they worship him a bit differently & tell a slightly different story? Sounds like anyone wanting to kill in his name is a bit daft & not really the sort of person we want here.

[Biggy Stardust]

PRO 5T said:

But being unpleasant doesn’t or shouldn’t get you kicked out of the country.

She wasn't kicked out- she left willingly. We're just not allowing her back on account of she's a bit too scummy. HTH.

[Levin]

PRO 5T said:

I listened to that bbc podcast about her, she sounds exactly how you expect a deeply unpleasant and rather foolish young girl to have turned out to be. She’s gone through some st in her short adult life but she’s plainly lying about exactly how involved she got with ISIS.

In any other situation she’d be the mouthy gobste on social media, or down the pub or wherever, living her st life while thinking she’s the most important thing on the estate.

But being unpleasant doesn’t or shouldn’t get you kicked out of the country. She seems to have been the poster girl for “f***k around and find out” at the very least, and probably more likely a political hot potato.

Maybe, just because there’s more unpleasant people waking around free in the U.K. shouldn’t be used as an excuse for her. I’m caught between the two thoughts on her.

I’m probably erring on the side of keeping her kicked out as I can’t be arsed on her fizzog being everywhere if she ever made it back in, that Wallace and Gromit gormless face being on every tv show that mentioned anything about anything while she thought of herself as some great debater.

It's interesting that you describe her as 'rather foolish', because that's exactly how Andrew Drury initially described her in The Sun when he met her in a refugee camp. In fact, Drury initially believed she was likely a victim of trafficking, an impression he rescinds in the same article. The impression he gives is that she is a manipulator. The final judgment makes clear that Begum is not a foolish girl, having been on track for all A and A* grades at GCSE before she flew to Turkey.

By February 2015, ISIS activities were blatantly obvious. The media wing had been producing very slickly edited videos of various atrocities. The spate of beheadings by 'Jihadi John' began in August 2014 and much ink was spilt on the topic. It is inconceivable that the Bethnal Green girls - including Sharmeena Begum (no relation to Shamima), who left months earlier - could not have known what the group was involved in. I remember ISIS propagandists being very active on Twitter during the period too, though of course given those accounts are banned it's very hard to illustrate that.

[MC Bodge]

Biggy Stardust said:

Yet that Allah said that all the others are false & should have their followers killed? I have a copy of his book & I'm pretty sure that's what it says. Are you sayiing that this god wants to kill his own followers just because they worship him a bit differently & tell a slightly different story? Sounds like anyone wanting to kill in his name is a bit daft & not really the sort of person we want here.

There also people who appear more than a bit daft without any sort of religious nonsense to use as an excuse.

[MC Bodge]

The issue is not about an individual, it is about the revocation of citizenship.

How many times must this be stated?

[anonymoususer]

MC Bodge said:

The issue is not about an individual, it is about the revocation of citizenship.

How many times must this be stated?

You can state it as many times as you wish. Just as long as she is kept out.

[PRO 5T]

Levin said:

PRO 5T said:

I listened to that bbc podcast about her, she sounds exactly how you expect a deeply unpleasant and rather foolish young girl to have turned out to be. She’s gone through some st in her short adult life but she’s plainly lying about exactly how involved she got with ISIS.

In any other situation she’d be the mouthy gobste on social media, or down the pub or wherever, living her st life while thinking she’s the most important thing on the estate.

But being unpleasant doesn’t or shouldn’t get you kicked out of the country. She seems to have been the poster girl for “f***k around and find out” at the very least, and probably more likely a political hot potato.

Maybe, just because there’s more unpleasant people waking around free in the U.K. shouldn’t be used as an excuse for her. I’m caught between the two thoughts on her.

I’m probably erring on the side of keeping her kicked out as I can’t be arsed on her fizzog being everywhere if she ever made it back in, that Wallace and Gromit gormless face being on every tv show that mentioned anything about anything while she thought of herself as some great debater.

It's interesting that you describe her as 'rather foolish', because that's exactly how Andrew Drury initially described her in The Sun when he met her in a refugee camp. In fact, Drury initially believed she was likely a victim of trafficking, an impression he rescinds in the same article. The impression he gives is that she is a manipulator. The final judgment makes clear that Begum is not a foolish girl, having been on track for all A and A* grades at GCSE before she flew to Turkey.

By February 2015, ISIS activities were blatantly obvious. The media wing had been producing very slickly edited videos of various atrocities. The spate of beheadings by 'Jihadi John' began in August 2014 and much ink was spilt on the topic. It is inconceivable that the Bethnal Green girls - including Sharmeena Begum (no relation to Shamima), who left months earlier - could not have known what the group was involved in. I remember ISIS propagandists being very active on Twitter during the period too, though of course given those accounts are banned it's very hard to illustrate that.

Have you listened to the podcast? That's exactly the same conclusion I came to after binging it, feeling she was somewhat manipulated/groomed in the beginning. I don't exactly disagree with her being groomed in some way in the beginning but she plainly knows what she's done and is playing the "poor little me" card now.

Her biggest problem is she's not a good enough liar to play it.

[Levin]

PRO 5T said:

Have you listened to the podcast? That's exactly the same conclusion I came to after binging it, feeling she was somewhat manipulated/groomed in the beginning. I don't exactly disagree with her being groomed in some way in the beginning but she plainly knows what she's done and is playing the "poor little me" card now.

Her biggest problem is she's not a good enough liar to play it.

I watched the documentary when it came out last year, but never got around to the podcast. If it covers things from a different perspective or presents a different angle I could be interested.

[eldar]

Biggy Stardust said:

No- you made an unsupported claim, I pointed out the fallacy. I didn't say what you claim I did.

She had her UK citizenship revoked as she renounced it whilst joining a death cult- this could happen as she was legally also a BD citizen. Her problem, not ours. It's all good.

Apparently her god Allah will take care of her.

Allah is God's spokesperson, much as Jesus. Both Christian and Moslem have the same God, just different PR organisations.

Absolutely not an ecumenical matter.

[MC Bodge]

eldar said:

Allah is God's spokesperson, much as Jesus. Both Christian and Moslem have the same God, just different PR organisations.

Absolutely not an ecumenical matter.

I think you'll find that the prophet is the spokesman for the Abrhamic god known as Allah.

[Colonel Cupcake]

People in a first-world western liberal democracy arguing about the finer points of two middle-eastern religions.

No wonder we're doomed.

[MC Bodge]

anonymoususer said:

MC Bodge said:

The issue is not about an individual, it is about the revocation of citizenship.

How many times must this be stated?

You can state it as many times as you wish. Just as long as she is kept out.

It's almost as if some people don't actually care about the process, or the knock-on effects, just about one person being symbolically prevented from re-entering the country for a undefined reasons, on the whim of a home secretary.

It is quite concerning.

[eldar]

MC Bodge said:

eldar said:

Allah is God's spokesperson, much as Jesus. Both Christian and Moslem have the same God, just different PR organisations.

Absolutely not an ecumenical matter.

I think you'll find that the prophet is the spokesman for the Abrhamic god known as Allah.

I find you are quite right. Thanks for the correction.

[MC Bodge]

eldar said:

MC Bodge said:

eldar said:

Allah is God's spokesperson, much as Jesus. Both Christian and Moslem have the same God, just different PR organisations.

Absolutely not an ecumenical matter.

I think you'll find that the prophet is the spokesman for the Abrhamic god known as Allah.

I find you are quite right. Thanks for the correction.

No problem.

Just to be clear, I think that all religions are equally untrue.

[loafer123]

MC Bodge said:

It's almost as if some people don't actually care about the process, or the knock-on effects, just about one person being symbolically prevented from re-entering the country for a undefined reasons, on the whim of a home secretary.

It is quite concerning.

As the court has found, the Home Secretary has acted entirely in accordance with the law.

You are the one wishing to circumvent it.

[Biggy Stardust]

eldar said:

Allah is God's spokesperson, much as Jesus.

Your lack of knowledge on the subject is noted.

[Biggy Stardust]

Colonel Cupcake said:

People in a first-world western liberal democracy arguing about the finer points of two middle-eastern religions.

No wonder we're doomed.

True religion is believing in the Norse gods: