Shamima Begum...
Discussion
loafer123 said:
ATG said:
loafer123 said:
MC Bodge said:
It's almost as if some people don't actually care about the process, or the knock-on effects, just about one person being symbolically prevented from re-entering the country for a undefined reasons, on the whim of a home secretary.
It is quite concerning.
As the court has found, the Home Secretary has acted entirely in accordance with the law.It is quite concerning.
You are the one wishing to circumvent it.
In 2019, 78% of people polled supported the then Home Secretary's decision, and subseuqent court cases have repeatedly referenced information from the secret services that she is a danger to the country.
People that don't agree have that right, but are a minority.
Saying sorry is not enough to get one off the hook.
Good riddance.
MC Bodge said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
MC Bodge said:
ATG said:
loafer123 said:
MC Bodge said:
It's almost as if some people don't actually care about the process, or the knock-on effects, just about one person being symbolically prevented from re-entering the country for a undefined reasons, on the whim of a home secretary.
It is quite concerning.
As the court has found, the Home Secretary has acted entirely in accordance with the law.It is quite concerning.
You are the one wishing to circumvent it.
Had the HS just decided that they fely like doing this for "politcal" reasons, then the courts would absolutely not
As for the bit at the start of this quote chain about "undefined reasons" - WTAF? Renouncing the UK and joining a terrorist organisation abroad is pretty well defined.
Mrr T said:
MC Bodge said:
ATG said:
loafer123 said:
MC Bodge said:
It's almost as if some people don't actually care about the process, or the knock-on effects, just about one person being symbolically prevented from re-entering the country for a undefined reasons, on the whim of a home secretary.
It is quite concerning.
As the court has found, the Home Secretary has acted entirely in accordance with the law.It is quite concerning.
You are the one wishing to circumvent it.
A HS has the right to revoke citizenship of a person who has dual citizenship for many reasons, mainly some criminal act. Such an action can be appealed, often under HRA right to family life. Her citizenship was revoked even though there are questions as to whether she really had Bangladesh citizenship. She is not now able to apply. There was an attempt to appeal the decision but her circumstances meant she could not instruct council so the case could not proceed. The decision to revoke has never been reviewed by the court.
The HS has an absolute right to ban any non citizen from entering the country. She was banned so she could not return to fight the decision to revoke.
I care little for this woman but I do dislike the idea that all UK citizens of Bangladeshi parents are less UK citizens than others.
Mrr T said:
I care little for this woman but I do dislike the idea that all UK citizens of Bangladeshi parents are less UK citizens than others.
There are a lot of us who may carry this lower status due to citizenship entitlement to other countries.But where you are born and where your family originate from has always had impact on our lives. There are upsides in benefiting from both citizenships, the down side is it introduces complex and rarely used legal possibilities such as this.
I think I'm in this category, and recognising the world is imperfect, I'm OK with what has been done. I'm more comfortable with it now that several appeals have been heard.
She is also a victim. She was surely groomed / influenced by some terrible sources. It's regrettable that she acted on them into her adult life and now has to face consequences for her actions. But I think you can make the same argument for many people who commit dreadful acts - that they themselves are victims of some terrible influences that helped them along a very bad path. However, that doesn't absolve people of the consequences for what they have done and we expect the law to find appropriate ways to deal with them that protect the rest of society.
My biggest worry in this whole saga is that there seems to have been no consequences for those who groomed / facilitated / supported or ignored what she was doing. If I thought bringing her back to the UK could really help here, I might be inclined to change my opinion.
Edited by Hungrymc on Monday 26th February 15:33
Hammersia said:
Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, and the legal niceties are different, but France has just deported an Imam for hate speech who's been living and raising a family there for more than forty years:
https://www.france24.com/en/africa/20240223-tunisi...
Not saying that's good, bad, or likely to solve much long term, but maybe it increases their domestic security short term.
Edit: what I found hopeful is that the Imam has said he's been misquoted / misunderstood, which kind of suggests when things get real maybe some of these fervent beliefs aren't quite as rigid as they appear.
He was not a French Citizen but on a residency permit which I guess is an easier expulsion than for a citizenhttps://www.france24.com/en/africa/20240223-tunisi...
Not saying that's good, bad, or likely to solve much long term, but maybe it increases their domestic security short term.
Edit: what I found hopeful is that the Imam has said he's been misquoted / misunderstood, which kind of suggests when things get real maybe some of these fervent beliefs aren't quite as rigid as they appear.
Edited by Hammersia on Monday 26th February 10:32
Hammersia said:
Not saying that's good, bad, or likely to solve much long term, but maybe it increases their domestic security short term.
I'd guess yes if they thought he was an actual threat...but then if he was you'd have to think he/they might try some repercussions so short term it definitely wouldn't would it?F1GTRUeno said:
Hammersia said:
Not saying that's good, bad, or likely to solve much long term, but maybe it increases their domestic security short term.
I'd guess yes if they thought he was an actual threat...but then if he was you'd have to think he/they might try some repercussions so short term it definitely wouldn't would it?F1GTRUeno said:
Is there not the possibility that you can be intellectually bright enough to get A/A* GCSE's and be people wise-enough to manipulate them knowingly and still be manipulated and foolish yourself?
The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how f
king old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.
Laws exist to cater for everyone in a rational and moral way. This whole thing stinks of emotional views sabotaging rationality and morality in the law.
It doesn't reflect well on us that we're willing to strip products of our own society of their citizenship. Shows a complete lack of ability to reflect internally at what went wrong and do something properly about everything that caused it because it's a lot harder than destroying one individual instead.
I'm not really sure what to tell you, other than that you have, I think, overestimated my age and underestimated the average teenager's ability to make rational decisions.The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how f
king old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.Laws exist to cater for everyone in a rational and moral way. This whole thing stinks of emotional views sabotaging rationality and morality in the law.
It doesn't reflect well on us that we're willing to strip products of our own society of their citizenship. Shows a complete lack of ability to reflect internally at what went wrong and do something properly about everything that caused it because it's a lot harder than destroying one individual instead.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 26th February 02:02
ZedLeg said:
williamp said:
Thats up to the courts of Syria, where she is, or Bangladesh, where she is from. She isnt British, so whats it got to do with us??
She was born in London. That doesn’t change because the government decided they don’t want to deal with her.
pork911 said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Why on earth would the HS publicize information collected by the security services?
I am astounded anyone could possibly think for a moment such a thing has, will or could ever happen.t that was used to justify the UK participating in the Saddam Hussein Memorial Demolition Derby was published; no one died as a result(although quite a few reputations went up in smoke), unlike the Demolition Derby itself. Unpublished advice being used to justify a politically convenient decision smells bad, especially when it is arguably extrajudicial.hidetheelephants said:
pork911 said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Why on earth would the HS publicize information collected by the security services?
I am astounded anyone could possibly think for a moment such a thing has, will or could ever happen.t that was used to justify the UK participating in the Saddam Hussein Memorial Demolition Derby was published; no one died as a result(although quite a few reputations went up in smoke), unlike the Demolition Derby itself. Unpublished advice being used to justify a politically convenient decision smells bad, especially when it is arguably extrajudicial.
F1GTRUeno said:
Is there not the possibility that you can be intellectually bright enough to get A/A* GCSE's and be people wise-enough to manipulate them knowingly and still be manipulated and foolish yourself?
The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how fking old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.
There's a world of difference between idiot 15/16 y/olds doing idiotic things, and carefully planning and executing a sophisticated plan to run off to Syria to join a death cult. The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how f
king old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.I think 99.999% of 15 y/olds, if you made that suggestion, would respond "do what......f
k off......I'm not a complete idiot". Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Tuesday 27th February 08:09
F1GTRUeno said:
Is there not the possibility that you can be intellectually bright enough to get A/A* GCSE's and be people wise-enough to manipulate them knowingly and still be manipulated and foolish yourself?
The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how fking old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.
Age of criminal responsibility=10, increased from 8 in the 60s iirc. Are upbringing and education that bad now or are young people de-evolving? The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how f
king old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.Backdrop: this individual was 15 when she left her London home to travel to Syria in 2015. Labour introduced Prevent in 2003 (she was 4) and the policy was extended by the Coalition in 2011.
turbobloke said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Is there not the possibility that you can be intellectually bright enough to get A/A* GCSE's and be people wise-enough to manipulate them knowingly and still be manipulated and foolish yourself?
The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how fking old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.
Age of criminal responsibility=10, increased from 8 in the 60s iirc. Are upbringing and education that bad now or are young people de-evolving? The those that honestly think that you're capable of making rational decisions at 15/16, how f
king old are you? Like you've completely forgotten what it's like to be a teenager or what teenagers are like in general. Even the smart ones are fking idiots.Backdrop: this individual was 15 when she left her London home to travel to Syria in 2015. Labour introduced Prevent in 2003 (she was 4) and the policy was extended by the Coalition in 2011.
I'd also argue the government are completely useless at basically everything so it's no surprise they've failed to keep up with the times (although I'd argue the internet being a wild west kinda limits what they can do in fairness).
Begum's story won't be too far removed from any other grooming story, where even the smartest and seemingly most capable of comprehension teenager is still an idiot and a child. She's just a bigger idiot cause she went full bore on it.
I think her story and the result of it also makes a perfect propaganda tool for recruitment of disaffected middle-eastern youth of which there are countless in the UK and elsewhere. We've played perfectly into their hands sadly.
MC Bodge said:
pork911 said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Why on earth would the HS publicize information collected by the security services?
I am astounded anyone could possibly think for a moment such a thing has, will or could ever happen.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff